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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There is no Scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. . |
Anyone who says this is in denial. Many Trinitarian scholars admit that the Old Testament does not reveal a Trinity.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 2:17 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
From the website "About Religion"
http://christianity.about.com/od/assembliesofgod/a/assemblybeliefs.htm
This is written by "Christian Expert" Mary Fairchild..
I am interested in hearing from any AG members whether or not you feel she correctly desribes the AG belief on the Godhead...
| Quote: | The Godhead - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, are three distinct persons, existing in a unified form as one body. God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. He is revealed in the Bible. He is eternal, with no beginning and no end.
Jesus Christ was the human incarnation of God the Father. He was born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life and died by crucifixion for the sins of the world. He was resurrected from the dead on the third day and exalted to heaven with God.
The Holy Spirit is the essence of God which moves among the people, touching believers here on Earth. |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 2:22 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There is no Scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. Indeed, the doctrine of the trinity is a synthesis of what the Scriptures teach concerning God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are numerous scriptures that contradict modalism/oneness. |
Ole Wyatt has pulled his forefather's (Wyatt Earp) pistol an shot straight on this one. Ifn these three sentences is yourn, Wyatt, son, you done done good, cause its the truth. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 3:57 pm
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| OTCP notice what's missing here |
brotherjames |
new logo
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
7/13/16 3:59 pm
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| I disagree |
brotherjames |
| Quote: | The Godhead - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, are three distinct persons, existing in a unified form as one body. God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. He is revealed in the Bible. He is eternal, with no beginning and no end.
Jesus Christ was the human incarnation of God the Father. He was born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life and died by crucifixion for the sins of the world. He was resurrected from the dead on the third day and exalted to heaven with God.
The Holy Spirit is the essence of God which moves among the people, touching believers here on Earth. |
While Jesus is IN the Godhead He is separate and distinct in person from the Father. They may be ONE as part of the Godhead but Jesus was NOT the human incarnation of the Father. he revealed the Father but He was the human incarnation of the SON, the second person of the Trinity. Your quote of this person as to the AG beliefs is in error and she is NOT a spokesman for the AG in any way shape or form that I am aware of and if she is, she misstated our beliefs.
I also take issue with the wording of the Godhead. They do NOT exist as ONE BODY - THe Trinity exists as Three Distinct Persons comprising a unique form called the Godhead - not a body. Semantics mean something. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
7/13/16 4:06 pm
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| Re: I disagree |
Resident Skeptic |
| brotherjames wrote: | | Quote: | The Godhead - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, are three distinct persons, existing in a unified form as one body. God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. He is revealed in the Bible. He is eternal, with no beginning and no end.
Jesus Christ was the human incarnation of God the Father. He was born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life and died by crucifixion for the sins of the world. He was resurrected from the dead on the third day and exalted to heaven with God.
The Holy Spirit is the essence of God which moves among the people, touching believers here on Earth. |
While Jesus is IN the Godhead He is separate and distinct in person from the Father. They may be ONE as part of the Godhead but Jesus was NOT the human incarnation of the Father. he revealed the Father but He was the human incarnation of the SON, the second person of the Trinity. Your quote of this person as to the AG beliefs is in error and she is NOT a spokesman for the AG in any way shape or form that I am aware of and if she is, she misstated our beliefs.
I also take issue with the wording of the Godhead. They do NOT exist as ONE BODY - THe Trinity exists as Three Distinct Persons comprising a unique form called the Godhead - not a body. Semantics mean something. |
The Senate exists as 100 distinct Senators comprising that Senate. It is indeed a body. How is the Trinity any different?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 4:24 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There is no Scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. . |
Anyone who says this is in denial. Many Trinitarian scholars admit that the Old Testament does not reveal a Trinity. |
Your bias is quite obvious. I did not say that the OT reveals a trinity. I said there is no scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/13/16 4:29 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Also, no intelligent and informed Trinitarian would ever claim that Jesus existed in a physical body prior to His incarnation. In any case, in order for Jesus/God to be loved before the foundation of the world, He clearly had to exist then. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/13/16 4:33 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Also, no intelligent and informed Trinitarian would ever claim that Jesus existed in a physical body prior to His incarnation. In any case, in order for Jesus/God to be loved before the foundation of the world, He clearly had to exist then. |
Why? Did he not love us before the foundation of the world as well?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 7/13/16 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 4:37 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There is no Scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. . |
Anyone who says this is in denial. Many Trinitarian scholars admit that the Old Testament does not reveal a Trinity. |
Your bias is quite obvious. I did not say that the OT reveals a trinity. I said there is no scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. |
Brother, understand I am one of the few that can honestly say I have lived in both universes and studied many different arguments. I'm not so much "bias" as I am simply throwing thoughts, arguments, and questions out there for consideration.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 4:47 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
In the context of this chapter, Jesus says the following:
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5
This indicates the divinely glorified preexistence of the Son of God, and parallels Jesus' prayer later of having been loved by the Father before the foundation of the world.
It is remarkable and fascinating to see how modalism ultimately makes love a nonessential to God though. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/13/16 4:47 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | In the context of this chapter, Jesus says the following:
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5
This indicates the divinely glorified preexistence of the Son of God, and parallels Jesus' prayer later of having been loved by the Father before the foundation of the world.
It is remarkable and fascinating to see how modalism ultimately makes love a nonessential to God though. |
The context is a human Son asking to receive something he did not currently possess, but that in the mind and plan of God, he already had before the world began.
For what you say to be true, one would have to believe that God the Son blacked out, completely lost his consciousness, was somehow transported by the Holy Ghost into Mary's womb where he was merged with a human egg, was born, and then somewhere along the line (in a way not told to us in the scripture) realized his true identity, and then became obedient to the death of a cross so God could re-glorify him and return to where he was once abode.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 5:10 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| No, for what these Scriptures say to be true, the Son of God voluntarily laid aside His position in Heaven for the sake of our salvation, was about to complete the work for which He had been sent, and was going to be glorified fully again with His Father in heaven soon. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/13/16 5:19 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | No, for what these Scriptures say to be true, the Son of God voluntarily laid aside His position in Heaven for the sake of our salvation, and was about to be glorified fully again with His Father in heaven. |
Too vague. Was part of that "laying aside" forgetting who he was and his existence prior to becoming a man? This is a very valid point.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 5:23 pm
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| A more believable story... |
Resident Skeptic |
Taken from a sermon I read....
| Quote: | I'd like us all to turn to Acts chapter eight, and read verses 26-35. This is the very familiar story of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch.
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[a] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet.
29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”
30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33 In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[b]
34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”
35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
I've often wondered what I would have said to this man had I been in Philips's shoes. Yet we do see that Phillip preached Christ to this man, in part at least, using the same passage he was reading that Isaiah had penned so many hundreds of years previously. The following is a dramatized version of what Phillip might have said to him.....
"Notice that this passage in Isaiah begins with a question, “Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?”Let me tell you about the “arm of Jehovah”. Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. One God in One Person, with one Spirit and one image, the Angel of His presence As Job asked, “Will you accept His person? Will you contend for Elohim?”The Angel of Jehovah appeared to our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Moses saw Him at the burning bush and hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon Elohim. There he revealed His Name to be Jehovah forever, unto all generations. David has declared that the Name of Jehovah is excellent. This same Angel showed Himself to David, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc.
Hidden from us in the scriptures was God’s intent to add humanity to His divine image. Yet He left us clues. Abraham and Joshua saw Him in the form of a man. A man wrestled with Jacob and prevailed not against him. So he blessed him and changed his name to Israel. As it written, “And Jacob called the place ‘Peniel’: for I have seen God face to face.” As wrote that Jacob, “had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the Angel, and prevailed."Abraham had to wait twenty five years for the son God had promised him, and through Isaac he became the father of many nations. He also made his the heir of all that he had. This is a figure of the eons that Jehovah waited for His Son, through whom He will become the Father of a multitude of born again sons and daughters.
He made His son the heir of all things and you can become a joint heir.
As Isaiah wrote, “therefore Adonai Himself will give you a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name ‘Immanuel’”. This was fulfilled many years ago when the Spirit of Jehovah overshadowed virgin girl named Mary, who conceived and gave birth to God’s only begotten Son. As the second Psalm has declared, “thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.” Jehovah became God the Father when His Son was born in Bethlehem, out which Micah prophesied that a ruler in Israel would come.
By His own decree His son was to be called Jesus, Jehovah-Savior. The father gave His only excellent Name of Jehovah to His only begotten Son. This baby was God with us, for he was God manifest in flesh. The angel of Jehovah was hidden in Him. Thus we now have Divinity covered by humanity, one God inside one man, the Father joined to and indwelling inside His son. This is the true tabernacle that Jehovah pitched., and not man. The Son is the arm of Jehovah, His own flesh.
Isaiah further spoke of this man when he wrote, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given……and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, and the Everlasting Father." The man without is the Prince of Peace, the Son of king Jehovah.
The child grew in stature and wisdom and in favor with God and man. At age thirty He was consecrated as a Priest and anointed with His Father’s Spirit before beginning His ministry. As it is written, “The Spirit of Adonai Jehovah is upon me, because Jehovah has anointed me.” He was now the Christ, the anointed of the second Psalm, the Messiah of Daniel. He went forth in the power of the Spirit to heal the multitudes, cast out demons, perform miracles, and preach the Kingdom of God. He said, “the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works”. And again, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” This fulfilled Solomon’s prayer at the dedication of the temple when he asked, “but will Elohim indeed dwell with men on earth?”
“But it pleased Jehovah to bruise Him”. As David declared, “Salvation is of Jehovah”. Jesus of Nazareth was without sin, and thus the perfect sacrifice for our sins. None else could redeem us. Thus Jehovah stretched forth His arm of humanity to save us, and that man freely died in our stead, the just for the unjust. Wicked men with cruel hands nailed Jesus to a tree. The Jews rejected their King. He was crucified as the Lamb of God to take away our sins, which the blood of animals could never do. He suffered the agonies prophesied in the twenty-second Psalm. "I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax: It is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and Thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and feet.”
This also fulfilled Jehovah’s proclamation in Zechariah, “They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for HIM”. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.
Jesus gave up the ghost and died. But God raised him from the dead the third day, for David had prophesied, “Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy One to see corruption, “ He ascended into Heaven, as David foresaw, “Elohim is gone up with a shout, Jehovah with the sound of a trumpet.” This same Jesus shall return in like manner.
This man is now seated on Heaven’s throne at the Father’s right hand of power, presence, and favor. All power has been given to Him in Heaven and Earth. The image of the Father dwells in Him, for in Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. God has highly exalted Him, made Him head over all things, and given Him a Name that is above every name. At the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, as Jehovah swore by Himself, “That unto ME every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear”. Again, as it is written, “The Stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner.”After Jesus was glorified, Jehovah joined the Son’s human spirit to His divine Spirit. Now the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of the Father and the Son, is poured out on all flesh, as Joel prophesied.
We look for the return of the great God, even Jehovah, and our Savior, Jesus Christ, even a man born of a virgin and God. Then, as it is written, “One shall say unto Him, What are these wounds in thy hands? Then He shall answer, I was wounded in the house of my friends.” Behold the man Christ Jesus! He’ll be your Savior and Judge! He’s the arm of Jehovah, God’s only Son. Believe on him and you will be saved, for he is God’s provision. Repent and be baptized in his Name, and your sins will be forgiven. Then you shall receive the gift of His Spirit, breathing into you everlasting life. " |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 5:24 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | No, for what these Scriptures say to be true, the Son of God voluntarily laid aside His position in Heaven for the sake of our salvation, and was about to be glorified fully again with His Father in heaven. |
Too vague. Was part of that "laying aside" forgetting who he was and his existence prior to becoming a man? This is a very valid point. |
I'm not sure what your reason is for bringing up such nonsequiturs, but in any case, I only affirm what the Scriptures affirm regarding Christ's deity and humanity. Philippians 2 indicates that He willingly chose to humble himself and become a man, to suffer obediently unto death, and is now exalted above every name because of it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/13/16 6:04 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | No, for what these Scriptures say to be true, the Son of God voluntarily laid aside His position in Heaven for the sake of our salvation, and was about to be glorified fully again with His Father in heaven. |
Too vague. Was part of that "laying aside" forgetting who he was and his existence prior to becoming a man? This is a very valid point. |
I'm not sure what your reason is for bringing up such nonsequiturs, but in any case, I only affirm what the Scriptures affirm regarding Christ's deity and humanity. Philippians 2 indicates that He willingly chose to humble himself and become a man, to suffer obediently unto death, and is now exalted above every name because of it. |
Alright then. Let me ask you this way.
Was there ever a time after the incarnation that God the Son was not fully aware of who he was ?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/13/16 7:16 pm
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| Possible contradiction.... |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There is no Scripture that is contradicted by the trinity doctrine. Indeed, the doctrine of the trinity is a synthesis of what the Scriptures teach concerning God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are numerous scriptures that contradict modalism/oneness. |
One area of scripture that I think gives the trinity problems ( which are then promptly ignored and everyone who believes otherwise is called a heretic) is in Revelation when the resurrected and ascended Christ (i.e., He cannot be said to be in His incarnate form, etc.) speaks of "MY God."
It is difficult to reconcile that Jesus, being fully God, calls His Father "MY God." What is telling is that while we might have some trouble with the Son saying this of the Father, we would have theological nightmares if the FATHER spoke of someone being HIS God!
Can it be handled? Of course. Does the solution make good sense? Maybe or maybe not. If you are determined to insist that the doctrine of the trinity come out regardless of whether it abides with the scripture or not, then the doctrine is a foregone conclusion. Otherwise, you might have more ambiguity in your doctrine, yet closer fidelity to no more than what the scriptures state. I have concluded that pretty much all sides of the debate--oneness, trinity, Arianism--are sincere and love The Lord. Doesn't make them right, but perhaps there is some mitigation there. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
7/13/16 8:28 pm
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| Notice this.... |
Aaron Scott |
| While "God the Father" is mentioned explicitly or implicitly a number of times, "God the Son" is not. I wonder whether this is an insight into the perceptions of the early writers? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
7/13/16 8:41 pm
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| Re: OTCP notice what's missing here |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | new logo
old logo
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My apologies, BJ, I initially thought you was makin a pro-oneness post an when ya said AG (not AoG) thought ya meant some other group like Apostolic Geezers or some such. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/13/16 8:46 pm
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