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 Is it wrong to pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit? |
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| Ventureforth wrote: |
We often sing songs welcoming the Holy Spirit or asking Him to come. |
I got into a discussion a few weeks ago with someone who was against Pentecostals and against praying to the Holy Spirit. He thought Pentecostals asked the Holy Spirit to baptize them, or something along those lines, and prayed to the Spirit to do that.
I agreed with him that the Bible doesn't teach us to pray to the Holy Spirit. It teaches prayer to the Father in Jesus' name. Jesus baptizes with the Spirit. The Father gives the Holy Ghost to them Who ask Him.
'Come, Holy Spirit' was something they said in the Vineyard. I've heard Charismatic and Third Wave songs addressed to the Spirit.
This is another one of those issues that deals with how we treat the Bible. If the Bible doesn't teach something, is it forbidden.
Is it wrong to pray to the Holy Spirit? Is it inappropriate to direct prayers to Jesus rather than to the Father in His name?
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2/23/17 10:34 pm
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Cojak |
From my childhood I was taught to pray to GOD, through Jesus Christ our mediator. I have never thought of praying to the Holy Ghost, but praying for a HG baptism.
To be honest many times in my life I have been embarrassed by what I thought were ignorant things do in the name of religion.
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jacsher@aol.com
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2/23/17 11:39 pm
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Cojak |
VF mentioned in our worship 'we invite the Holy Spirit'. I understand the idea behind this but if God is omnipresent, God the Holy Ghost is also, isn't the HG already there when we 'invite him' We should be thanking him for allowing us to be in his ever presence. Or something like that.......
I was in a 4SQ church once when the Evangelist almost demanded people to come down front 'WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS'. 
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2/23/17 11:44 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
Well, since the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus, and we pray to the Father through Jesus, I'd say you are praying to the Holy Spirit every time you pray. He is one God. All this silly separation is needless.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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2/24/17 6:01 am
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The COG Apostle |
| I am happy that my relationship with God is not built on correct formulas of communication. |
Acts-celerater
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2/24/17 8:27 am
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| I Never Shall Forget the Day |
diakoneo |
In the lyrics of a popular Redback hymn is this line:
"I prayed to Jesus and He gladly set me free!"
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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2/24/17 8:51 am
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| The COG Apostle wrote: | | I am happy that my relationship with God is not built on correct formulas of communication. |
Is it built on incorrect formulas of communication.
Paul said that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. The Bible also teaches us that Jesus is Lord. Shouldn't we pay close attention to how He said to pray?
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2/24/17 12:10 pm
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| Pentecostals not praying to the Holy Spirit??? |
Christopher Stephenson |
I wonder if I unknowingly pray *to* the Holy Spirit when praying *in* the Holy Spirit.
Whatever the case, I knowingly pray to the Holy Spirit.
Here are two of my favorites:
1. Renew, Your wonders in this our day, as by a new Pentecost...Come, Holy Spirit, in your power and might to renew the face of the earth.
2. Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit and they shall be created. And You shall renew the face of the earth.
O, God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise and ever enjoy His consolations, Through Christ Our Lord, Amen. |
Friendly Face
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2/24/17 1:38 pm
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| Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus |
Quiet Wyatt |
They continued to stone Stephen while he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Acts 7:59
The Holy Spirit is referred to by Jesus as another comforter (of the same kind). He is referred to in Acts and in the epistles as the Spirit of Jesus or the Spirit of Christ, and is a Teacher, Guide, Helper, Strengthener, etc. In Acts, Paul's apostolic band was said to have been forbidden by the Holy Ghost to enter a certain area where they had desired to minister the gospel.
In short, He speaks to us, and He has all the attributes of divine personhood. So it would seem strange indeed if we were somehow forbidden to speak to Him in prayer.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 2/24/17 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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2/24/17 2:19 pm
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UncleJD |
| I think there is a right order to do things, but its not a heresy. My pastor, a very prominent minister btw, when leading new converts in prayer, has them pray "Dear Jesus, ..... in Jesus name, amen". It seems a bit awkward to me, but I don't think its a matter to call the church fathers together about. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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2/24/17 2:54 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| UncleJD wrote: | | I think there is a right order to do things, but its not a heresy. My pastor, a very prominent minister btw, when leading new converts in prayer, has them pray "Dear Jesus, ..... in Jesus name, amen". It seems a bit awkward to me, but I don't think its a matter to call the church fathers together about. |
Exactly.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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2/24/17 3:56 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
I remember a young lady in a CoG back in the late 80's who had just returned from a trip to Israel saying, "Since the Jews don't believe in Jesus, the whole time I was in Israel I only prayed to the Father. But since I've been back I've only prayed to Jesus and the Holy Ghost so they won't feel left out."
Comon folks. There is only one God! I dare say that young lady's perception of God is common in the CoG. But that is not even sound Trinitarian doctrine.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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2/24/17 4:00 pm
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The COG Apostle |
| Link wrote: | | The COG Apostle wrote: | | I am happy that my relationship with God is not built on correct formulas of communication. |
Is it built on incorrect formulas of communication.
Paul said that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. The Bible also teaches us that Jesus is Lord. Shouldn't we pay close attention to how He said to pray? |
Our Father, which art in Heaven.......
Nothing about in Jesus' name or by the Holy Spirit. Is that the formula? If it is, most everybody misses the boat. |
Acts-celerater
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2/24/17 4:54 pm
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| I am happy that my relationship with God is not built on correct formulas of communication. |
Charles Page |
that's coming from a COG apostle!!!
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Friendly Face
Posts: 346
2/24/17 7:01 pm
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Ventureforth |
| The COG Apostle wrote: | | Link wrote: | | The COG Apostle wrote: | | I am happy that my relationship with God is not built on correct formulas of communication. |
Is it built on incorrect formulas of communication.
Paul said that all scripture is profitable for doctrine. The Bible also teaches us that Jesus is Lord. Shouldn't we pay close attention to how He said to pray? |
Our Father, which art in Heaven.......
Nothing about in Jesus' name or by the Holy Spirit. Is that the formula? If it is, most everybody misses the boat. |
Yeah, I was going to mention Jesus' model prayer. It is a general pattern He taught His disciples to follow and a pattern for us. But there is nothing in it about Jesus. The question occurred to me of whether He would have included Himself at this time since Jesus was right there with them and He had not died, been resurrected and ascended.
However, Paul speaks of the Father many times. He tells us (twice I think) we have received the Spirit of adoption whereby we cry "Abba Father!"
| Quote: | Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Ephesians 3:14 [ Prayer for Spiritual Strength ] For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, |
See also Romans 15:6
I am unaware of any scripture where only Jesus is referred to in prayer. That doesn't mean there is none. But if there is, there doesn't seem to be near as many.
(This post inspired me to do some research. Another value of Actcelerate. )
This is not to say that it is wrong (or as Uncle JD well said, heresy) to pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is called the "Spirit of the Father" and the "Spirit of His Son".
But I wonder if the Father's fatherly nature is somehow diminished in some minds because they don't pray to the Father much. In today's society it is all the more important to remember that we have a perfect Heavenly Father, even if our earthly father is not around.
He wants to be a Father to us because that's His nature. And He wants to show us all that means. (I hope you don't mind the sermon. ) |
Acts-celerater
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2/24/17 7:17 pm
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| Re: Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus |
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| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | They continued to stone Stephen while he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Acts 7:59 |
I figured that verse would come up. There are examples of people talking to Jesus after the resurrection when they saw him in visions and supernatural experiences like this one. Paul asked the Lord who persecuted Him.
I don't think it is a sin to talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. But I do think we can benefit from praying the way Jesus taught, and put our emphasis on that, praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
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2/24/17 8:22 pm
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| Re: Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus |
Ventureforth |
| Link wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | They continued to stone Stephen while he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Acts 7:59 |
I figured that verse would come up. There are examples of people talking to Jesus after the resurrection when they saw him in visions and supernatural experiences like this one. Paul asked the Lord who persecuted Him.
I don't think it is a sin to talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. But I do think we can benefit from praying the way Jesus taught, and put our emphasis on that, praying to the Father in Jesus' name. |
Ok, I forgot about QW's reference.
That backs up what we are saying. Good point. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
2/24/17 8:59 pm
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22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16, emphasis mine.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
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2/25/17 4:53 am
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| Tom Sterbens wrote: |
Your point is taken...however, there is perhaps no more meticulous group of praying people in the bible than the Pharisees and it didn't appear Jesus held much of their praying (prayers) in high regard. |
Of course, they were meticulous about keeping their own traditions, not the teachings of Jesus.
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In the end God seems measure the efficacy of prayer by the motive/heart of the one praying and perhaps not so much the formula of the prayer. |
God looks on the heart. I believe God can answer prayers that might just be a bit lacking in technical 'correctness' in response to faith in the heart of the person who prays.
That's an interesting point about calling on the Lord Jesus in sincerity. In Revelation, John responds to 'Surely, I come quickly' with 'even so come Lord Jesus.'
The passage I quoted in John talking about asking the Father. Paul said let your requests be made known unto God. Throughout his epistles, Paul refers to the Father as God.
One poster commented on how it was odd to hear someone pray to Jesus is Jesus' name. The habit of people praying to Jesus and not the Father and living in a church culture that does that may actually cause people not to think much about the Father, who gets quite a bit of attention in the New Testament. It doesn't seem to be how the apostles prayed. I believe that praying the way Jesus instructed is good for our understanding of God.
For most people, in their environment it may not seem to matter that much. But it sure would be hard to relate to Jews or Mus|ims if you think in terms of praying to Jesus. The idea of praying to God in Jesus' name would be easier for Mus|ims to relate to. And of course, it is Biblical to pray to God in Jesus' name.
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2/25/17 11:37 am
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| Re: Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus |
Ventureforth |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: |
1 Corinthians 1:2 (NASB95)
"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:"
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I've been thinking about how much the "access" in Ephesians 2:18 and those like it play into calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Other than Jesus and what He did for us, we would not have access to the Father.
We know the Son saves us by giving His life. But the Father saves us by giving His Son. We could say the Father saves us through the agency of the Son. (John 3:17) Likewise, we can say the Father hears and answers our prayers through the agency of the Son.
Well, I know this question has pretty much been brought to a conclusion (to which I agree). But the thread has brought to mind more thoughts about our Father.
| Quote: | | Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. |
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Last edited by Ventureforth on 2/25/17 10:22 pm; edited 4 times in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 651
2/25/17 1:57 pm
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