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KariJay |
What I meant is a lot of the people you see in these churches are there are Sunday morning because they enjoy service and then Sunday night they are out at the bar drinkin' it up, sleepin' around, and cursing like sailors. Yes...I've seen it.
You are right...sanctification is a process. But these people haven't even BEGUN the process in most cases.
_________________
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www.karilife.com
Living Life...Learning Life...Loving Life... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4825
3/29/07 2:05 pm
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| Re: Let me weigh in here |
Telecaster |
| vintagefaith77 wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | [
No vintage, I worked in an emergent church and partnered with many other, and I've seen the fallacies first hand. I see them around me where I am now. I see them from some remarks some of the other emergent preachers on here make about their activities and services. I see them on TV, and more importantly, I hear about them from people in my community that ask real questions as to why certain things have been allowed in churches. That's not ignorance friend. Ignorance is accepting the fact that because a movement has become successful at building numbers, then that means they are also making a difference in the world and impacting and discipling souls for eternity. |
Let me ask you this Telecaster, do you REALLY think that most COG's are "making a difference in the world" and "discipling souls for eternity"?? REALLY??? If you say yes, then it shows your bias and the glare from your rose colored glasses would be blinding! In my opinion, true discipleship and making a positive impact on the world DOES NOT happen in most COG's in America. We are more concerned with "coming out from among them" and looking good in to our state officials. |
I'll answer your question with a question. You say no, and I may say yes, but how can either of us say with assurity? I do believe the COG as a whole is making a difference, especially overseas. It's a growing denomination so that shows some success in regards of numbers.
You're entitled to your opinion, but there's nothing wrong with "coming out from among them" if the world is the "them" that you speak of. We are to also be among "them" yet seperate. Let's include all of scripture if we're talking seperation.
The fact that you say no, shows your bias towards the emergent movement as much as me saying yes shows my supposed bias towards the COG.
Let me add that as my post earlier has been considered arrogant, it is as fair, if not more fair, to say the post by Mr. Sturgell is equally if not more arrogant being that his "painful saying" of the COG being dead in 25 years ultimately comes from a belief that unless the COG "emerges" with his churches and these others, it will be dead. As for you, you say those who don't buy into this are ignorant and unlearned. Again, if I'm arrogant, what does this make you guys. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/29/07 2:48 pm
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Telecaster |
| KariJay wrote: | What I meant is a lot of the people you see in these churches are there are Sunday morning because they enjoy service and then Sunday night they are out at the bar drinkin' it up, sleepin' around, and cursing like sailors. Yes...I've seen it.
You are right...sanctification is a process. But these people haven't even BEGUN the process in most cases. |
Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, (get ready for an "arrogant" statement. You've been warned!) this type of behavior is exhibited by those movements while either preach you're always saved or those movements who rarely preach sin and judgment, but sugar coat everything with entertainment and "love."
It makes me wonder if the emergent movement is looking to look good in front of state officials and other prosperous and important leaders with their own numbers. It's sad, but probably most of these churches look more like the MTV Awards rather than the House of God calling people unto worship and holiness.
Obedience is better than sacrifice, so all the sacrifices we give up in order to win souls might make a dent in things, but the complete obedience to the Word of God will make the impact. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/29/07 2:53 pm
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KevinLloyd |
it has always bothered me that when people are challenged w/ the question "is the CG making a difference?" no matter what the answer is, it's always followed by "...but especially overseas!". i am thrilled that the impact is what it is overseas...but what about here? what is going on overseas that should be going on here? just curious.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 2:58 pm
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| Re: Let me weigh in here |
tsturgell |
[quote="Telecaster"] | vintagefaith77 wrote: |
I'll answer your question with a question. You say no, and I may say yes, but how can either of us say with assurity? I do believe the COG as a whole is making a difference, especially overseas. It's a growing denomination so that shows some success in regards of numbers.
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There it is, Overseas is growing but not here in the States. Why? Why? Why? Because leadership is scarred to death of something different.
_________________
Todd Sturgell
Creative Worship Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
http://www.toddsturgell.org
http://www.facebook.com/toddsturgell
http://twitter.com/toddsturgell
http://www.stevenscreekchurch.com/ |
Friendly Face
Posts: 267
3/29/07 3:43 pm
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| Re: Let me weigh in here |
KevinLloyd |
[quote="tsturgell"] | Telecaster wrote: | | vintagefaith77 wrote: |
I'll answer your question with a question. You say no, and I may say yes, but how can either of us say with assurity? I do believe the COG as a whole is making a difference, especially overseas. It's a growing denomination so that shows some success in regards of numbers.
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There it is, Overseas is growing but not here in the States. Why? Why? Why? Because leadership is scarred to death of something different. |
good call.
what up t-dawg???
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 3:47 pm
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philunderwood |
| Quote: | | It makes me wonder if the emergent movement is looking to look good in front of state officials and other prosperous and important leaders with their own numbers. It's sad, but probably most of these churches look more like the MTV Awards rather than the House of God calling people unto worship and holiness. |
you know, ignorance is bliss. to say this is such an indictment of your knowledge of the emergent movement. in fact, i laugh when i see emergent compared with the MTV awards. emergent services are very muted, contemplative, meditative, sacramental and reverent. i don't know who you are, but you are clueless about this subject.
in fact, the emergent movement is really more "holiness" driven than the CofG i grew up in. we equated 'holiness' with morality. emergents equate holiness with integrity of spirit, justice, being the people of God incarnating the life of Jesus and with clarity of speech/action.
i challenge someone to find a more 'holy' man than chris seay; a more holy atmosphere of worship than at ecclesia, or the various meetings that i have been privileged to be in.
there is one big difference here between me and thee... i have experience and you do not.
kevin lloyd wrote:
| Quote: | | it has always bothered me that when people are challenged w/ the question "is the CG making a difference?" no matter what the answer is, it's always followed by "...but especially overseas!". i am thrilled that the impact is what it is overseas...but what about here? what is going on overseas that should be going on here? just curious. |
kevin, you are so right. and, it is sad that the stats we throw out that we are so "proud of" are so bankrupt when you sit down and think about it...
800,000+ salvations with only 75,000 baptisms
c'mon, i mean, what is wrong with those numbers?
also, the decline of the church in this culture is astounding with a decrease in churches, leaders and institutions of care/compassion.
when more people get defensive about the news travis communicated regarding missions/evangelism budgets than being concerned, we have a problem. i mean in reality, could you have a $1 million budget, and have 80% of it posted under miscellaneous? no, you couldn't. and, if you could, your organizations adherents that kept quiet about it would be foolish. yet that is exactly our scenario.
i would like one person here to give us a great reason that we should not question the status quo....no matter where or what you are.
if my elders, myself, our congregation do not question why, what, how, when, who, then something is definitely wrong. the CofG culture says "do not question authority." that is bunk. it is also the reason you have suits in tennessee that do not see the forest for the trees.
things are declining. it has only just begun.
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
3/29/07 3:56 pm
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| Be careful Kari... |
prefontaine |
| Anytime you say "in most cases" you are setting yourself up for failure. You are suggesting that most of the people that attend seeker-sensitive churches across the country have not started the sanctification process. So, for every church of 1000 people, 500 of those people don't want to have anything to do with living a holy life??? That number seems a bit far fetched to me-especially when you consider some of the seeker sensitive churches in America: Saddleback, Skyline, Mars Hill in Seattle, Imago Dei, Good Shepard, New Life Church, Willow Creek, Steven's Creek, and several, several more that I don't know about. These are some of the largest, most influential churches in America. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/29/07 3:59 pm
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| Re: Let me weigh in here |
vintagefaith77 |
| KariJay wrote: | | vintagefaith77 wrote: | | Telecaster wrote: | [
No vintage, I worked in an emergent church and partnered with many other, and I've seen the fallacies first hand. I see them around me where I am now. I see them from some remarks some of the other emergent preachers on here make about their activities and services. I see them on TV, and more importantly, I hear about them from people in my community that ask real questions as to why certain things have been allowed in churches. That's not ignorance friend. Ignorance is accepting the fact that because a movement has become successful at building numbers, then that means they are also making a difference in the world and impacting and discipling souls for eternity. |
Let me ask you this Telecaster, do you REALLY think that most COG's are "making a difference in the world" and "discipling souls for eternity"?? REALLY??? If you say yes, then it shows your bias and the glare from your rose colored glasses would be blinding! In my opinion, true discipleship and making a positive impact on the world DOES NOT happen in most COG's in America. We are more concerned with "coming out from among them" and looking good in to our state officials. |
If what you say is true, Vintage...that the COG's in America are not impacting the world...I guess I might as well throw in the towel. Makes me feel REAL good about my ministry for the last 3 years. A little discouraging that I've made absolutely no impact because I'm COG.
If impact is determined by the amount of people that you have in your sanctuary, we are in a heap of trouble. The biggest churches in America house alot of unsanctified people. What kind of impact has those churches made on THOSE people? If they aren't changing, no impact is being made on them either. |
Kari, I don't think we should throw in the towel, I think we should do a better job. And I DEFINITELY include myself in that we...I know that I have alot to learn on how to make true Biblical disciples, but I want to learn because it's the 1 thing Jesus told us to do. And NO, I don't think having alot of people in the sanctuary is indicative of impact...probably some of the most unhealthy churches are supposed "mega churches". I am leaning more to the 'missional' approach which intentionally keeps churches smaller in favor of true relationships and discipleship. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1807
3/29/07 4:15 pm
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KariJay |
My goal and aim is to do better in my ministry...but not at the expense of souls. It sounds like an oxymoron...but really...it's not.
_________________
www.twitter.com/karijay
www.karilife.com
Living Life...Learning Life...Loving Life... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4825
3/29/07 4:24 pm
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Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | it has always bothered me that when people are challenged w/ the question "is the CG making a difference?" no matter what the answer is, it's always followed by "...but especially overseas!". i am thrilled that the impact is what it is overseas...but what about here? what is going on overseas that should be going on here? just curious. |
Well unfortunately, we don't have the faith they do overseas. Here we go to Wal Mart and buy medicine if we feel bad. Many overseas have nothing and so all they can do is go to God. That's our problem over here. We're calaus and our hearts are hardened. We have to be impressed and entertained almost before we are at a place to understand who God is.
For the most part, the answer to all questions, is to preach the Word. Just preach the Word. It'll do the trick everytime. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/29/07 5:26 pm
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Telecaster |
| philunderwood wrote: | | Quote: | | It makes me wonder if the emergent movement is looking to look good in front of state officials and other prosperous and important leaders with their own numbers. It's sad, but probably most of these churches look more like the MTV Awards rather than the House of God calling people unto worship and holiness. |
you know, ignorance is bliss. to say this is such an indictment of your knowledge of the emergent movement. in fact, i laugh when i see emergent compared with the MTV awards. emergent services are very muted, contemplative, meditative, sacramental and reverent. i don't know who you are, but you are clueless about this subject.
in fact, the emergent movement is really more "holiness" driven than the CofG i grew up in. we equated 'holiness' with morality. emergents equate holiness with integrity of spirit, justice, being the people of God incarnating the life of Jesus and with clarity of speech/action.
i challenge someone to find a more 'holy' man than chris seay; a more holy atmosphere of worship than at ecclesia, or the various meetings that i have been privileged to be in.
there is one big difference here between me and thee... i have experience and you do not. |
Phil, I quit taking anything you said too highly when I found out about you and the GA Floor, not to mention, being confused as to whether you do have licenses or not, oh yea, and showing Hollywood movies unedited in your church so your people can get worldly experience.
I do have experience in the emergent church and most I've been associated with act as is portrayed. Besides, you yourself give us insight all the time of what an emergent church is. My comments come from experience and from words from emergents as yourself.
Oh and . . . a more holy man . . . wow, can you say pedestool? How about we aspire to be like Christ and do the whole Word. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/29/07 5:29 pm
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| Re: Be careful Kari... |
Telecaster |
| prefontaine wrote: | | These are some of the largest, most influential churches in America. |
How are they influencing America? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/29/07 5:31 pm
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| Telecaster... |
prefontaine |
| How are they influencing America?? How many churches across the USA institute some sort of program that was birthed out of one of these churches? Ted Haggards small group model, Purpose Driven Life (ans Church and Youth Group before that), too many things from Willow Creek to list, Steven's Creek and the whole ATM thing, Skyline-pretty much everything older than just a few years that came from John Maxwell, and Men's groups shaped after Promise Keepers and the book A Tender Warrior-written by the pastor of Good Shepard, Stu Weber. That's how these churches are influencing America. Before his fall, Haggard was one of the most influential evangelicals in the country. You act like these churches aren't making an impact, but the smallest of the churches I listen is over 1500 people-they are impacting somebody. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/29/07 5:50 pm
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Telecaster |
| Again, how are the influencing America? You've mentioned being able to draw crowds and write books and so forth. So have other churches. So how are they influencing America? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/29/07 5:54 pm
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| There is a difference... |
prefontaine |
| For one thing, the crowds is a part of it...they influence their city greatly. If we get enough churches like that, we influence a state, then a nation. As far as the books go, there is a difference between writing a book, and selling a million copies. I could write a book, but I might never sell one. When you sell as many books as those gentlemen have, you've got influence. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5103
3/29/07 5:59 pm
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KevinLloyd |
| Telecaster wrote: | | Again, how are the influencing America? You've mentioned being able to draw crowds and write books and so forth. So have other churches. So how are they influencing America? |
to me it's a huge influence on america that Purpose Driven Life has been on the bestsellers list like...forever. if that's not the kind of influence you're talking about another kind of influence...then i don't understand the question.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 9:15 pm
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| Purpose Driven Life |
atouchoffolly |
If the PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD that is Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life is the influence that we are hoping for, I feel worse than before.
_________________
If there is a time to hate, as Ecclesiastes suggests, it is when we are children, when we don't know any better, when we think hate is something we can's help. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 111
3/29/07 9:37 pm
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| I guess no body knows! |
Rayford J. Bethune |
I ask for someone to name 100 ministers that have left the COG the last 10 years and there has been no response. Is this because there have not been 100 left to go into another more up-to-date movement?
So if anyone can name only a few names( again, do not count anyone that left because of feeling the COG was too liberal, or those that had their credentials revoked) it kind of makes this entire argument a waste of time. Or I could be blunt and say all that agree that it is true is believing a lie.
Some of you would not have anything to say if you were not trying to figure out a way to down the COG.
Many of you say that you believe the Word, and your just wanting to show Christ in your life. The denomination is not doing any good. Your tired of a show you want what is real. Well, one thing that is real is that we should be under subjection to those that are over us in the lord and in society.
How can you justify rebellion against authority? Oh, I know, you don't agree with you leadership because your right and God is leading you in a new place of serving Him.
I guess God has been waiting for a time such as this for a new group of people to come along so He could finally get society and the church ready for the rapture.
Of all the COGs in America, and all of the new ministers, and all of the people that attend every week, I am sorry it is not enough to say the COG is doing good. I could give you some other things that are going on in America but you have already made up your mind, so it doesn't matter.
I guess the attack that the COG is under on this board should encourage every COG pastor,evangelist, teacher, singer, lay person, and every one else that attends our churches. Someone else is getting a break and the COG is faithful enough to with take the abuse and survive.
Thanks and God Bless!
Rayford J. Bethune
Senior Pastor, The Refuge
Fort Payne, Alabama |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 52
3/29/07 10:28 pm
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| Re: Purpose Driven Life |
KevinLloyd |
| atouchoffolly wrote: | | If the PLEASE SELECT ANOTHER WORD that is Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life is the influence that we are hoping for, I feel worse than before. |
dude...i guess you've done something better?
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/29/07 10:33 pm
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