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 bonnie...maybe you're part of the problem? |
FloridaForever |
Bonnie, with respect, my sister, that sort of eye-rolling, speak-to-the-hand attitude IS offensive to most men.
I have a THEORY that many black young men deal with incredible internalized rage because most of them have been raised by domineering women in single-parent homes. Yes, that's a theory, but makes a little sense, no?
As for men, we know from psychological studies that while women tend to have a greater need for protection/security, men crave RESPECT. A disrespectful woman does more harm to a marriage that we dare let on...because as we all know, IT'S ALWAYS THE MAN'S FAULT.
Everything from date rape to domestic violence is ALWAYS the man's fault. I say that's BULL MALARKEY.
Women who put themselves in harm's way and then cry foul when the man crosses the line...nope, ain't havin' it.
Yes, a woman's lack of submissiveness IS and CAN be a big part of the problem. She wants her way. And "only by pride cometh contention." She contends because of her pride...which is a lack of submission to her husband.
Yeah, it happens. Maybe the solution is to quit blaming men for not being knight-in-shining-armor enough to convince a woman to do whatever he wants...and to blame the woman for not being obedient to the scriptures. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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12/14/11 5:47 pm
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krista |
| Link wrote: | Since this got a sticky, I'll go ahead and share something.
I knew a missionary overseas who really did a lot of work founding Bible schools and things like that. He was probably a Type A personality. He was really nice guy. You could always reach him on his cell phone, and hundreds of people felt like he was a father to them.
One time though, he showed one of his flaws. He was with his wife in a van and probably a few other people including myself, the driver, and maybe someone else. He and his wife were talking and she had forgotten to put some money in a bank account to cover the bills, maybe back in the US. He got really upset and raised his voice at her and looked angry as he had a bit of a fit.
She just agreed with him that she was wrong, that what she did was stupid. She was very calm throughout the whole thing. Within a few seconds, he still looked angry, but there was nothing for him to react to. She didn't argue back. She didn't say, "Don't talk to me like that." or "Don't talk to me like that in front of these people." My view of him might have gone down a notch or two after that.
But I have great respect for that man's wife (widow now), for the way she handled that. She interacted with her husband with submissiveness and respect, and just didn't give any fuel at all the fire of his anger. She may have told him it was inappropriate later, when we weren't around. I don't know. But it took a kind of strength and self-control to do that. Submission takes strength. I respect a woman who can do that.
I also wonder how many arguments in marriages can be prevented or quelled by a wife having an attitude of submission and reverence toward her husband. If she wants to correct him and does it with respect/reverence, how many arguments would that solve. I don't see how yelling, for example, is consistent with either submission or respect. Of course, if men loved their wives like Christ loved the church, too, that would prevent a lot of arguing. I just don't imagine Christ yelling at His church. |
In my opinion, that is NOT submission of the Bible kind. That is a woman who has been done this way before.
It say's for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That doesn't sound like the way Christ deals with the Church. It sounds like a hot-head and a wife that is used to it. It sounds suppressive to me and NOT submissive. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
12/14/11 5:50 pm
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Quiet Wyatt,
I think I have shared with you some things about what I think submission and/or respect from a wife to a husband look like, particularly in regard to how she talks with her husband. Scan for 'wife's mouth' in the post of mine that Bonnie quoted. I also think the FF post that I said I agreed with mostly was a pretty good description of how submission works in my marriage for the most part.
I don't treat my wife like a child. I don't think if one person submits to another it necessarily resembles a parent-child relationship. Hupotasso, the Greek word translated submit, was used of soldiers coming under the authority of a commanding officer. One officer may outrank another. Both officers are competent adults, yet the officer who is under the command of the other submits to him. To use a non-military example, the CEO and his vice presidents are all accomplished businessmen, but the vice presidents submit to the CEO since he is in charge.
| Quote: | | The issue as I see it with regard to "submission" is the very real tendency for a bully or a tyrant to use the concept as a pretext for mistreating others. Not saying anyone here is necessarily advocating that. I understand that someone can of course voluntarily submit to be a servant/slave. What troubles me about the issue most is when men would use it to basically mistreat others and thus violate the Golden Rule. |
This relates to a concern I pointed out in the OP. The Bible teaches wives to submit to their husbands as unto the Lord, and if husbands love their wives and love Christ, they should want their wives to submit to them. Yet if a man talks about the need for the wife to submit to the husband, he could easily be judged as a chauvinist, an ogre, a tyrant, or a bully. That certainly need not be the case.
The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands. It does not tell husbands to subjugate their wives. I have an accountability relationship with my wife. In the past, if I have sinned in some area, I'll sense that the Lord wants me to pray about it with my wife. I need to be there for her in this area as well. If my wife is not submissive as a wife should be, that is a sin, and I need to hold her accountable about that. I also saw great success just praying for my wife on the submission and respect issue in the past. My approach has not been to make her submit. I think that is important to point out when teaching on this passage.
Paul did not say to husbands "Make your wives submit." If you have ever seen the Shakespeare play, "The Taming of the Shrew", Petruchio, 'tames' his shrew of a wife Katherina by saying that the food is not good enough for her and not feeding her, and by saying that clothes are not good enough for her, and tearing them up. But the Bible doesn't say to tame our wives. It tells the wives to submit to their husbands. If a wife is not submissive, a husband can provide accountability by exhorting her to do what is right. He can pray for her. But he can't force her to submit from the heart, to her husband as unto the Lord, by bullying her.
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12/14/11 5:58 pm
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| krista wrote: |
In my opinion, that is NOT submission of the Bible kind. That is a woman who has been done this way before.
It say's for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That doesn't sound like the way Christ deals with the Church. It sounds like a hot-head and a wife that is used to it. It sounds suppressive to me and NOT submissive. |
I would agree with you that her husband was out of line for yelling at her about the money not being in the bank. Like I said, my opinion of him went down after that.
But I do think she handled herself well under a difficult situation. She had apparently made a mistake, but her husband had really overreacted.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/14/11 6:00 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | As for men, we know from psychological studies that while women tend to have a greater need for protection/security, men crave RESPECT. A disrespectful woman does more harm to a marriage that we dare let on...because as we all know, IT'S ALWAYS THE MAN'S FAULT. |
Florida, yes, I'm well aware that an eye-roll is a sign of contempt. To say that "one problem in a lot of marriages is the wife's mouth" should really be beneath an educated man's speech. It is a very barbaric, sexist, offensive way of portraying marital strife. If the root of the problem is lack of respect, perhaps that can be addressed in a civil manner. And the fact of the matter is (Dr. Eggerichs notwithstanding) disrepect can burn a woman, too. The Bible says to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. The Bible says to do unto others as you would they should do to you. The Bible says to prefer your brother to yourself. There are a lot of passages that deal with respecting one another. It is not just something for a wife to do for her husband.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 12/14/11 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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12/14/11 6:39 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | Everything from date rape to domestic violence is ALWAYS the man's fault. I say that's BULL MALARKEY.
Women who put themselves in harm's way and then cry foul when the man crosses the line...nope, ain't havin' it.
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In other words, "she asked for it." I've heard that phrase before.  |
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12/14/11 6:45 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Maybe the solution is to quit blaming men for not being knight-in-shining-armor enough to convince a woman to do whatever he wants...and to blame the woman for not being obedient to the scriptures. |
I love your either/or choice. Marvelous. |
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12/14/11 6:51 pm
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Link |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Link wrote: |
If a man tells his wife, "Honey, I want you to get rid of that skirt. It is too short for you" or if he tells his wife he doesn't want her spending more than X amount on the credit credit card and checks up with her about it, you might say he is controlling her. Some wives have a problem with issues like this, and it may not be wrong for her husband to keep her in 'control' in a loving manner of course. If the same man had a mature, godly wife, he might not be as controlling.
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And reciprocally if a husband should wear clothes that were somehow inappropriate, or he is blowing money stupid stuff - I would assume the wife has no spiritual authority to address such matters?
Currently I am counseling a couple...married over 35 years...educated, previously in a pastoral role. In the last few years they left public ministry and he has become addicted to alcohol. Is she to continue to submit and clean up the puke when he comes home drunk? Is she to continue to submit to his using the car and staying out until 3:00AM, coming home drunk? Is she to continue to submit and allow him to spend the money she earns on alcohol and other stuff...leaving them without money for basic necessities? |
That is a tough situation. There is a difference between how a husband should act toward his wife in this situation and the way a wife should act toward her husband. That doesn't mean a wife shouldn't say anything. You can disagree with someone you submit to. You can point out what they are doing wrong, but you need to do it in a submissive manner appropriate to the situation.
In general, if my wife yelled at me, I would consider that disrespectful. If I were about to get hit by a bus, though, and my wife yelled at me to save my life, that would be very appropriate.
It does help to have someone in authority involved. If the man in the scenario is a believer, his local church should step in and discipline him. If a man is a drunkard and won't repent, the church is to withdraw fellowship. It makes a whole lot more sense to me if the wife leaves the house for a while as a part of the church withdrawing fellowship than the pastor just telling the wife to leave.
Children aren't adults, so it isn't quite the same. If you were counseling children on how to treat a drunk parent, though, what would you say? What about adult children?
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Link
Last edited by Link on 12/14/11 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-perienced Poster
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12/14/11 6:55 pm
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| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | Everything from date rape to domestic violence is ALWAYS the man's fault. I say that's BULL MALARKEY.
Women who put themselves in harm's way and then cry foul when the man crosses the line...nope, ain't havin' it.
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In other words, "she asked for it." I've heard that phrase before. |
It's like telling a woman not to go out dressed like a hoe, so she doesn't get raped.
She might say she has the right to dress the way she wants to, and goes out dressed like that.
If she does get raped, the man would be no less guilty of rape than if he'd raped a nun dressed in a habit or a Mus1im women dressed in a burka. Rape is still rape.
But in some neighborhoods, a woman is less likely to get raped if she doesn't dress provocatively. And it would seem in some households, domestic violence may be less likely to occur if the wife has a submissive and respectful attitude. That doesn't make the man right.
I wouldn't want to marry my daughters off to a man like that, though.
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Posts: 11849
12/14/11 7:02 pm
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Poimen |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Just in case this was missed...
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | 1 Pet. 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. |
Both slaves submitting to their masters and wives submitting to their husbands are inextricably linked in the New Testament passages which treat the subject. You can't just pick and choose. One is every bit as 'scripturally' valid as the other. |
Yes, by the nature and act of the call to submit. Not by the nature or condition of their relationship one to the other. The similarity is one of function.
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Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
12/14/11 7:03 pm
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krista |
| Link wrote: | | krista wrote: |
In my opinion, that is NOT submission of the Bible kind. That is a woman who has been done this way before.
It say's for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That doesn't sound like the way Christ deals with the Church. It sounds like a hot-head and a wife that is used to it. It sounds suppressive to me and NOT submissive. |
I would agree with you that her husband was out of line for yelling at her about the money not being in the bank. Like I said, my opinion of him went down after that.
But I do think she handled herself well under a difficult situation. She had apparently made a mistake, but her husband had really overreacted. |
It's not a matter of her handling herself well. It's a matter of her being suppressed and knowing to not say anything. There's a difference. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
12/14/11 7:11 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Link wrote: | | It's like telling a woman not to go out dressed like a hoe, so she doesn't get raped. |
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12/14/11 7:12 pm
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| Bonnie, you are a case-in-point.... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | Florida, yes, I'm well aware that an eye-roll is a sign of contempt. To say that "one problem in a lot of marriages is the wife's mouth" should really be beneath an educated man's speech. It is a very barbaric, sexist, offensive way of portraying marital strife.
See, you get to portray it as somehow offensive, etc....BUT IT IS STILL TRUE. I am not intimidated into not speaking the truth just because someone finds it offensive to them. Do you DARE claim that, indeed, in a lot of marriages, one of the problems is the wife's mouth??? Or are you just dismissing it because it doesn't blame the man entirely for all the problems in a marriage?
If the root of the problem is lack of respect, perhaps that can be addressed in a civil manner. And the fact of the matter is (Dr. Eggerichs notwithstanding) disrepect can burn a woman, too. The Bible says to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. The Bible says to do unto others as you would they should do to you. The Bible says to prefer your brother to yourself. There are a lot of passages that deal with respecting one another. It is not just something for a wife to do for her husband.
ABSOLUTELY! A man who disrespects his wife is a lout. But that doesn't negate the fact that women disrespect men! In fact, if I might be so bold, I'm not sure that it is not especially incumbent upon women to talk respectfully, due to the fact that they ARE to submit to their husbands.
No, this doesn't let the man off the hook at all, but just as the corporal must respect the sergeant, so, too, does it work that way in marriage. We are equals...but one of us--the husband--has the last word.
My boss is no better than I am. Yet he/she has the last word in matters related to business. That's just life.
And as for a woman "asking for it" by dressing and acting provocatively, YES SHE IS.
The man is a low-life rapist and deserves a beating and prison. But let's have none of this nonsense as if there was no any contributing causes. It's like saying a woman who strikes matches around gasoline shouldn't have any blame for setting off a fire.
There are men who would do evil if a woman was dressed in burlap. But we know that MOST men are sexually attracted to certain dress and behavior. I remember cringing at the stripper who claimed to have been raped at a fraternity party. No, she didn't DESERVE to be raped, but she was "asking for it" in the sense of undressing and enticing young men.
They were wrong (I don't think they actually were found guilty, etc.), but so was she.
Cuts both ways.
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
12/14/11 8:46 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | I remember cringing at the stripper who claimed to have been raped at a fraternity party. No, she didn't DESERVE to be raped, but she was "asking for it" in the sense of undressing and enticing young men.
They were wrong (I don't think they actually were found guilty, etc.), but so was she. |
Rape is usually not perpetrated on someone because that person is sexually provocative. It usually is about domination.
If you are thinking about the stripper at the Duke lacrosse team party, wow, you are cringing about the wrong thing. She wasn't raped by the Duke lacrosse team. She falsely accused them as was witnessed by their ATM receipts, etc. The DA, Mike Nifong, was trying to get a conviction against them to bolster his chances for re-election. He made history by being the first prosecutor in NC to be disbarred for actions in a case. The reasons for his disbarment were "dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation."
As for the stripper, she is currently facing trial for murdering a man. |
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Posts: 14803
12/14/11 9:55 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Do you DARE claim that, indeed, in a lot of marriages, one of the problems is [not?] the wife's mouth??? Or are you just dismissing it because it doesn't blame the man entirely for all the problems in a marriage? |
I think you meant to put "not" in there somewhere.
I'm definitely not a blame-the-man-entirely kind of person. In fact, I don't think assigning blame to either party is a particularly constructive way of dealing with marital issues. Saying it is the fault of the "wife's mouth" is an especially crude way of assigning blame.
Just a little anecdote about the blame-the-man mentality. My son said his coach (who is a Baptist seminary graduate) was going over the "no excuses" goal. He said that there was a marriage counselor who always, regardless of the wife's culpability, told the man, "It's all your fault." The idea behind it was that the man was the head of the home, and therefore, all the responsibility lay on his shoulders. In other words, the man had no excuses.
My son and I had a discussion about it. Besides telling him that seminary messes up people's minds  , I told him if a man was paying for marriage counseling, and the counselor told him it was all his fault, he would be an idiot if went back for a second session.  I think I probably mentioned that assigning blame is really not productive and that it takes two to tango. |
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Posts: 14803
12/14/11 10:15 pm
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Poimen |
| krista wrote: | | Link wrote: | Since this got a sticky, I'll go ahead and share something.
I knew a missionary overseas who really did a lot of work founding Bible schools and things like that. He was probably a Type A personality. He was really nice guy. You could always reach him on his cell phone, and hundreds of people felt like he was a father to them.
One time though, he showed one of his flaws. He was with his wife in a van and probably a few other people including myself, the driver, and maybe someone else. He and his wife were talking and she had forgotten to put some money in a bank account to cover the bills, maybe back in the US. He got really upset and raised his voice at her and looked angry as he had a bit of a fit.
She just agreed with him that she was wrong, that what she did was stupid. She was very calm throughout the whole thing. Within a few seconds, he still looked angry, but there was nothing for him to react to. She didn't argue back. She didn't say, "Don't talk to me like that." or "Don't talk to me like that in front of these people." My view of him might have gone down a notch or two after that.
But I have great respect for that man's wife (widow now), for the way she handled that. She interacted with her husband with submissiveness and respect, and just didn't give any fuel at all the fire of his anger. She may have told him it was inappropriate later, when we weren't around. I don't know. But it took a kind of strength and self-control to do that. Submission takes strength. I respect a woman who can do that.
I also wonder how many arguments in marriages can be prevented or quelled by a wife having an attitude of submission and reverence toward her husband. If she wants to correct him and does it with respect/reverence, how many arguments would that solve. I don't see how yelling, for example, is consistent with either submission or respect. Of course, if men loved their wives like Christ loved the church, too, that would prevent a lot of arguing. I just don't imagine Christ yelling at His church. |
In my opinion, that is NOT submission of the Bible kind. That is a woman who has been done this way before.
It say's for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. That doesn't sound like the way Christ deals with the Church. It sounds like a hot-head and a wife that is used to it. It sounds suppressive to me and NOT submissive. |
And pray tell what does submission to a hot headed husband look like?
Spouses, like all people, are flawed. Doesn't alleviate what we are called to, but it doesn't change the requirement on how we are to respond to each other either. I am to love my wife whether she reverences me or not. She is to me reverence me whether I love her not. But even better, when we both do our part, we are able to enjoy the fullness of what God intends for marriage. When one fails we do our part to honor the sanctity f marriage and the God who designed it and our roles in it.
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Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
12/14/11 10:17 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | And as for a woman "asking for it" by dressing and acting provocatively, YES SHE IS.
The man is a low-life rapist and deserves a beating and prison. But let's have none of this nonsense as if there was no any contributing causes. It's like saying a woman who strikes matches around gasoline shouldn't have any blame for setting off a fire. |
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12/14/11 10:19 pm
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: |
I'm definitely not a blame-the-man-entirely kind of person. In fact, I don't think assigning blame to either party is a particularly constructive way of dealing with marital issues. Saying it is the fault of the "wife's mouth" is an especially crude way of assigning blame. |
It may be a blunt way to put it, but it is true of some marriages. I have a couple in mind right now.
| Quote: | | Just a little anecdote about the blame-the-man mentality. My son said his coach (who is a Baptist seminary graduate) was going over the "no excuses" goal. He said that there was a marriage counselor who always, regardless of the wife's culpability, told the man, "It's all your fault." The idea behind it was that the man was the head of the home, and therefore, all the responsibility lay on his shoulders. In other words, the man had no excuses. |
Sometimes it is the man's fault for not leading, but doesn't the wife have some kind of choice on how she behaves. If you are going to tell men that they aren't supposed to 'make' their wives submit, then it doesn't make sense to say if the wife doesn't submit, it is not the man's fault.
If the counselor said that in front of the wife, and convinced her of it, that could really cause more harm than good. It would be frustrating to deal with a wife, who, when her husband pointed out one of her faults, instead of trying changed, just blamed her fault on her husband for not leading her well enough. He is leading her by trying to admonish her about the problem, but then she throws the counselors words up in his face.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/14/11 10:25 pm
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| bonnie knox wrote: | | Link wrote: | | It's like telling a woman not to go out dressed like a hoe, so she doesn't get raped. |
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I was thinking about saying 'so she doesn't raked' to stick with the garden tool metaphor, but I was afraid people wouldn't get it.
That is one of those scenarios where you hear people say 'she is asking for it' or blame the victim.
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12/14/11 10:27 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Sometimes it is the man's fault for not leading, but doesn't the wife have some kind of choice on how she behaves. If you are going to tell men that they aren't supposed to 'make' their wives submit, then it doesn't make sense to say if the wife doesn't submit, it is not the man's fault. |
I don't have any idea what you're saying. Your sentence would make more sense if you said: "If you are going to tell men that they aren't supposed to 'make' their wives submit, then it DOES make sense to say if the wife doesn't submit, it is not the man's fault."
I don't think a man is supposed to "make" his wife submit. I don't hold to the idea that everything is the man's fault. (And besides, I don't think "head of the house" is an accurate extension of "head of the woman.") I thought what the coach told my son was kooky (except that mature people try to approach life with a "no excuses" attitude). |
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12/14/11 10:39 pm
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