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 Were we "pickled" into death in Christ Jesus? (or, what passes for teaching at Bethel Church) |
Dave Dorsey |
Georgian Banov preached at Bethel last week and said that because the Greek word "baptizo" was first used (c. 250 BC) in a cookbook to mean pickling, that this is the correct understanding of what it means to be baptized -- not washed, but pickled in the death of Christ Jesus.
Does Romans 6 teach that all of us who were pickled into Christ Jesus were pickled into his death?
Is it correct to teach God's people that a word only has one meaning, and that the first use of the word in history (and Banov is correct that the first known literary use of "baptizo" is in a cookbook and does refer to pickling) defines the meaning of that word 250 years later?
Is it correct to teach God's people that baptism is not washing, but pickling? Banov gives an example of his grandmother pickling a cucumber and says that a cucumber is changed inside and out by this process. Does water baptism change us inside and out? Should John the Baptist be called "John the Pickler", as Banov says in this message?
You can listen to Banov's complete sermon here (but you have to pay for it, like you do to access almost all of what Bethel Church merchandises and pedals as the word of God) - http://www.bethel.tv/watch/5195/sunday-night/2018/03/18
You can also hear just the relevant excerpt, with an excellent breakdown of the hermeneutical flaw, in the March 19 episode of the "Fighting for the Faith" podcast, beginning at 51:52.
I've been baptized in water, but there wasn't any salt, garlic, or vinegar involved. Could you Bethel fans help me understand if I was baptized incorrectly? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/20/18 7:51 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Just imagine how all the “Southern Pickled†churches is gonna feel. An when they have the Southern Pickled Convention ever year, all these folk is gonna show up to learn the art of pickle makin. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
3/20/18 8:56 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I recall one old-time preacher (not OTCP) who would sometimes say, “Some folks seem as if they were baptized in pickle juice!†🤓 |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/20/18 12:45 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I recall one old-time preacher (not OTCP) who would sometimes say, “Some folks seem as if they were baptized in pickle juice!†🤓 |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/20/18 12:53 pm
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| Re: Were we "pickled" into death in Christ Jesus? (or, what passes for teaching at Bethel Church) |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Georgian Banov preached at Bethel last week and said that because the Greek word "baptizo" was first used (c. 250 BC) in a cookbook to mean pickling, that this is the correct understanding of what it means to be baptized -- not washed, but pickled in the death of Christ Jesus.
Does Romans 6 teach that all of us who were pickled into Christ Jesus were pickled into his death?
Is it correct to teach God's people that a word only has one meaning, and that the first use of the word in history (and Banov is correct that the first known literary use of "baptizo" is in a cookbook and does refer to pickling) defines the meaning of that word 250 years later?
Is it correct to teach God's people that baptism is not washing, but pickling? Banov gives an example of his grandmother pickling a cucumber and says that a cucumber is changed inside and out by this process. Does water baptism change us inside and out? Should John the Baptist be called "John the Pickler", as Banov says in this message?
You can listen to Banov's complete sermon here (but you have to pay for it, like you do to access almost all of what Bethel Church merchandises and pedals as the word of God) - http://www.bethel.tv/watch/5195/sunday-night/2018/03/18
You can also hear just the relevant excerpt, with an excellent breakdown of the hermeneutical flaw, in the March 19 episode of the "Fighting for the Faith" podcast, beginning at 51:52.
I've been baptized in water, but there wasn't any salt, garlic, or vinegar involved. Could you Bethel fans help me understand if I was baptized incorrectly? |
Dave, in my opinion I think your lot in life has been to accept a calling to attack a lot of good people because they don't think, act or teach like you do!
Your constant insults & divisive insinuations towards those who support Bethel ministry say a lot about you ...& it's not good.
I hope & pray your day to day life is not so marginalized that you can't have a one-on-one conversation w/out casting judgment on other Christians or seekers.
I have a sincere question for you: has God somehow made an exception in His word to allow you to become a judge of men & their motives?
I've told you numerous times that I have a few family members who attend there & the way you paint your comments with such broad brush strokes you seem to have no problem insulting people who enjoy the ministry of Bethel.
Honestly Dave, is this a game to you? Do you enjoy insulting the faith, belief & spiritual sensitivity of others simply because they don't believe like you do?
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/20/18 8:10 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Hey Dean, I noticed you made a lengthy post attacking me but you neglected to mention anything about the topic itself.
Do you have any thoughts about Banov’s teaching? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/20/18 8:15 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Hey Dean, I noticed you made a lengthy post attacking me but you neglected to mention anything about the topic itself.
Do you have any thoughts about Banov’s teaching? |
Side-step, side-step, side- step!
I knew you wouldn't respond Dave & I don't believe I attacked you Dave because that is against the rules of this board.
I disagreed with you & pointed out your lengthy insult towards people who love & support Bethel ministry.
I'll respond accordingly when you can respond to my comments in a decent manner.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/20/18 8:25 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Dean, all I did was post — with video and audio evidence — exactly what Banov taught at Bethel Church on Sunday. You’re the one who lobbed an ad hom rather than defending Banov’s teaching, but I’m the one sidestepping. Right.
I don’t blame you, Dean. Banov’s teaching is indefensible. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/20/18 8:30 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: |
Dean, all I did was post — with video and audio evidence — exactly what Banov taught at Bethel Church on Sunday. You’re the one who lobbed an ad hom rather than defending Banov’s teaching, but I’m the one sidestepping. Right.
I don’t blame you, Dean. Banov’s teaching is indefensible. |
Dave, the playground is for lobbing!
You went out of your way to solicit a response because you knew it was salacious.
How many times have you heard a lousy analogy or metaphor?
Did you even listen to the whole thing or did you just get the pirates version of a little clip?
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/20/18 8:43 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
Dave is doing a similar thing to what the ole timer has done since the inception of Acts, expose/reveal/highlight error and call for discernment in any and ever practice that is questioniable.
There is nothing wrong with testing the spirits/practices/beliefs of anyone claiming to be of Christ to determine if indeed they are biblical.
What ministers/ministries with questioniable practices do is "constantly and consistently" look for some "new thing." Like their Mars Hill counterparts in the book of Acts that's all they spend their time doing. Once you pull a rabbit outta the hat for a while it loses its appeal, an ya gotta start pullin two out, then three, and they is never no stopping. In religion, the practices become more and more bizarre and ridiculous. And sadly, the gullible will always be present.
Dean, does Bethel's associate pastor Banov promote this picklin business? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
3/20/18 9:55 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| While I do find the idea of saints being pickled rather humorous, I really don’t think this particular instance is all that terrible, really. I mean Bethel, WOF and the NAR have WAY more terrible (even blasphemous) doctrines than this. This one is just kind of funny. It reminds me of some of the silly things I’ve heard youth pastors and other novices say from the pulpit over the years. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/20/18 10:40 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Jesus said, "Pickle them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
3/20/18 11:00 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I mean Bethel, WOF and the NAR have WAY more terrible (even blasphemous) doctrines than this. |
Ain't that the truth!
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | This one is just kind of funny. It reminds me of some of the silly things I’ve heard youth pastors and other novices say from the pulpit over the years. |
Yup, if this was comin' from a youngster preaching a service I'd probably laugh until I cried and then do whatever I could afterward to help him understand the hermeneutical mistake he made.
Georgian Banov ain't no amateur, though, matter of fact, he's an apostle who "deliver[s] a powerful message to the Body of Christ based on fresh revelations from the Epistles of Paul" and whose "presentation of the Gospel is with rare clarity and depth causing changed lives" (https://www.globalcelebration.com/bio).
He'll also be a speaker at the "Come Holy Spirit" conference in April along with Che Ahn, Lou Engle, Lance Wallnau, Heidi Baker, Todd White, Claudio Freidzon, and Bill Johnson. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/21/18 3:33 am
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| Re: Were we "pickled" into death in Christ Jesus? (or, what passes for teaching at Bethel Church) |
Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Honestly Dave, is this a game to you? Do you enjoy insulting the faith, belief & spiritual sensitivity of others simply because they don't believe like you do? |
And Dean, to answer your question, no, this isn't a joke to me. These people claim apostolic authority to govern regions and nations but time and time again they can't exhibit even the most basic faithfulness to Scripture when teaching and preaching God's word.
As long as they're deceiving folks and as long as I've got breath in me, I'll do whatever I can to help people see the biblical truth of what is going on and get away from the NAR/WOF movement. People did that for me when I was stuck in these movements, and I'm grateful every day that they did. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/21/18 4:18 am
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wayne |
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Last edited by wayne on 3/23/18 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
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3/21/18 8:25 am
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| Re: Were we "pickled" into death in Christ Jesus? (or, what passes for teaching at Bethel Church) |
Dave Dorsey |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | I have a sincere question for you: has God somehow made an exception in His word to allow you to become a judge of men & their motives?
...
Honestly Dave, is this a game to you? Do you enjoy insulting the faith, belief & spiritual sensitivity of others simply because they don't believe like you do? |
Also, sincere question... has He for you? Because there's only one person judging hearts and motives in this thread, and it's not me. My post was focused on the content of Banov's teaching and the practices of Bethel Church. I have no idea about Banov's motives or Johnson's motives, but frankly, I assume they are genuine and good, and that their teaching and practices are the result of a lack of biblical understanding and not any deliberate desire to deceive. I have no reason to believe otherwise.
You're the one who made it a question of my heart, as you always do, and as brotherjames always did. You guys seem unable to defend the practices of these folks (understandably so) and so you go after the motives of the person bringing you information you don't like, all the while ironically asking them how they justify judging the hearts and motives of others.
You're not the person I'm trying to reach with posts like this, but honest to goodness, when you come into threads like this all you do is help me make my case to those I am trying to reach. If this stuff was defensible, presumably you'd defend it. But it isn't, so you don't. You just attack the person who brought it up. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/21/18 9:55 am
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| Re: Were we "pickled" into death in Christ Jesus? (or, what passes for teaching at Bethel Church) |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Honestly Dave, is this a game to you? Do you enjoy insulting the faith, belief & spiritual sensitivity of others simply because they don't believe like you do? |
And Dean, to answer your question, no, this isn't a joke to me. These people claim apostolic authority to govern regions and nations but time and time again they can't exhibit even the most basic faithfulness to Scripture when teaching and preaching God's word.
As long as they're deceiving folks and as long as I've got breath in me, I'll do whatever I can to help people see the biblical truth of what is going on and get away from the NAR/WOF movement. People did that for me when I was stuck in these movements, and I'm grateful every day that they did. |
Do you honestly believe there are people on this talk board stuck in these movements? Hence why I question your motivation for the barrage of anti-Bethel content.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/21/18 4:40 pm
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| Re: Were we "pickled" into death in Christ Jesus? (or, what passes for teaching at Bethel Church) |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | I have a sincere question for you: has God somehow made an exception in His word to allow you to become a judge of men & their motives?
...
Honestly Dave, is this a game to you? Do you enjoy insulting the faith, belief & spiritual sensitivity of others simply because they don't believe like you do? |
Also, sincere question... has He for you? Because there's only one person judging hearts and motives in this thread, and it's not me. My post was focused on the content of Banov's teaching and the practices of Bethel Church. I have no idea about Banov's motives or Johnson's motives, but frankly, I assume they are genuine and good, and that their teaching and practices are the result of a lack of biblical understanding and not any deliberate desire to deceive. I have no reason to believe otherwise.
You're the one who made it a question of my heart, as you always do, and as brotherjames always did. You guys seem unable to defend the practices of these folks (understandably so) and so you go after the motives of the person bringing you information you don't like, all the while ironically asking them how they justify judging the hearts and motives of others.
You're not the person I'm trying to reach with posts like this, but honest to goodness, when you come into threads like this all you do is help me make my case to those I am trying to reach. If this stuff was defensible, presumably you'd defend it. But it isn't, so you don't. You just attack the person who brought it up. |
Dave I recognize your debate class tactics but let's get real here.
You cannot tell me that your honest to goodness, daily plan is to warn the mostly CoG ministry posters on Acts that Redding, CA. has been invaded by the WOF's & NAR's.
Come on dude ...I've been in ministry for 40 yrs & I've seen this plenty of times.
Just admit it & let's have a quick laugh & move on.
I read where you were once trapped in the NAR movements & later on you embraced another belief, I understand your thoughts but I don't slight you for your different beliefs.
For you to lump all people of NAR or even WOF beliefs into one single theology is silly. Thats like saying all pentecostals are the same & those of us who still claim to be pentecostal would take offense at that.
Have you ever followed anything Banov has ever done outside of your Bethel view of him?
Have you seen the work he's done? Do you do these kinds of works Dave? James 2 reminds us that Faith w/out works is dead so I'm asking you Dave, do you operate in works in conjunction w/your faith?
These are not fun questions or teasing to get a comical response.
Have you seen the thousands of starving people who patiently wait for a simple meal in a 3rd world country & then hear the Banov's tell them about Jesus & His saving grace?
When I hear you nit pick at an odd analogy in reference to baptism & basically call the man a fraud or even blasphemous, it makes me cringe that you're so eager to judge somebody who is feeding the starving masses while telling them about the love of Jesus.
Maybe his illustration & explanation on the pickle & baptism were out there for those of us in the mainstream but keep in mind he was talking to mostly post-grad students & was talking about being changed from the inside out (like what happens when a person really gets baptized instead of just getting wet).
Can't believe I'm saying this but oh well, when a cucumber shows up to be pickled it doesn't happen until the process is done.
The cucumber cannot ever be a pickle ever again.
No, I'm not fond of the analogy & if I were sitting there I probably would have scoffed or laughed it off ...but I wouldn't go on Acts & make fun of a guy who lays down his life & meets the poorest of the poor at the point of their most basic need in life.
You said this Dave:
| Quote: | Georgian Banov preached at Bethel last week and said that because the Greek word "baptizo" was first used (c. 250 BC) in a cookbook to mean pickling, that this is the correct understanding of what it means to be baptized -- not washed, but pickled in the death of Christ Jesus.
Does Romans 6 teach that all of us who were pickled into Christ Jesus were pickled into his death?
Is it correct to teach God's people that a word only has one meaning, and that the first use of the word in history (and Banov is correct that the first known literary use of "baptizo" is in a cookbook and does refer to pickling) defines the meaning of that word 250 years later? |
I read your statement & I don't see where he says the word "baptizo" only has "one" meaning. But then again, what if he is right?
Doesn't change the way I teach or the method I use to baptize new saints.
My goodness dude, a guy from a former communist nation has a different view of the understanding of baptism & you somehow are the guy who has to warn the body of Christ about how wrong he is???
I think you're way off base on this one Dave.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/21/18 5:35 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Thanks for a good reply, Dean.
I have to say that I think you're way off base too, though. We're commanded in Scripture to test these things, and as created beings, we do not get to determine what that test is. The tests are commanded to us. One test is character, but the more prominent test commanded in Scripture is the test of doctrine.
You sound like you follow Banov's ministry. Perhaps you are then also aware that at Todd Bentley's apostolic alignment ceremony, Banov "prophesied" two texts over him that apply to Christ and Christ alone:
| Quote: | | And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45 but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you. |
This is blasphemy of the highest order. It might not damn a man to Hell, and Banov is not necessarily beyond repentance for it, but it is representative of what John calls the spirit of antichrist. This is no joke, and it should be enough to disqualify a man from a pulpit, both because it was a false prophecy and because it betrays such an incredible misunderstanding of the gospel and the person and work of Jesus Christ. It should at the very least be enough to let someone know if you invite that man to preach, you're probably going to hear the holy sacrament of baptism described as pickling. The fact that Banov would look at Todd Bentley and speak words over Him that apply to Christ alone -- it should make you want to tear your clothes!
We ought to be calling these men to repentance -- not opening pulpits to them and sending them money and listening to their podcasts. We ought to be warning others about them, as Scripture commands us to do.
And yeah, Dean... I do think there are folks on Acts who are wrapped up in this stuff.
I'm going to cut it off here because theological disagreement between brothers should first and foremost involve charity, and I suspect both of us are at risk of missing that mark, if we have not already. I wish you well. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/21/18 6:09 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Thanks for a good reply, Dean.
I have to say that I think you're way off base too, though. We're commanded in Scripture to test these things, and as created beings, we do not get to determine what that test is. The tests are commanded to us. One test is character, but the more prominent test commanded in Scripture is the test of doctrine.
You sound like you follow Banov's ministry. Perhaps you are then also aware that at Todd Bentley's apostolic alignment ceremony, Banov "prophesied" two texts over him that apply to Christ and Christ alone:
| Quote: | | And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45 but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you. |
This is blasphemy of the highest order. It might not damn a man to Hell, and Banov is not necessarily beyond repentance for it, but it is representative of what John calls the spirit of antichrist. This is no joke, and it should be enough to disqualify a man from a pulpit, both because it was a false prophecy and because it betrays such an incredible misunderstanding of the gospel and the person and work of Jesus Christ. It should at the very least be enough to let someone know if you invite that man to preach, you're probably going to hear the holy sacrament of baptism described as pickling. The fact that Banov would look at Todd Bentley and speak words over Him that apply to Christ alone -- it should make you want to tear your clothes!
We ought to be calling these men to repentance -- not opening pulpits to them and sending them money and listening to their podcasts. We ought to be warning others about them, as Scripture commands us to do.
And yeah, Dean... I do think there are folks on Acts who are wrapped up in this stuff.
I'm going to cut it off here because theological disagreement between brothers should first and foremost involve charity, and I suspect both of us are at risk of missing that mark, if we have not already. I wish you well. |
I'll respond by saying this, I appreciate the fact that you responded & I'll have to delve into this for more clarification.
As to this disagreement, I would not cross the line to forgo charity unless you attack my family.
Finally, NO ...I have not & do not follow his ministry as a supporter. I do however follow 'the' ministry of many who go to the places that most Americans would never go & I am humbled by their dedication.
Blessings
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on?
Last edited by Dean Steenburgh on 3/22/18 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/21/18 6:53 pm
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