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Acts-celerater Posts: 707 **1/5/12 8:30 pm**

postmortem?

And there isn't any light except Jesus and the law. The rest is darkness.

The Bible is clear, you can't fulfill the law.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/5/12 8:44 pm**

FF,

Your point is understood. You posit a second chance for salvation after death for those who have earned the right to it by being good enough, correct?

First of all, the Scriptures in John 3 plainly state that those who are not born again are of the flesh, which can profit nothing. Only the Spirit can give life. Further, the Scriptures are plain that in ourselves, we can do nothing but fail and sin, that it is only by the Holy Spirit's power than anyone can live above sin. And sinners are not good. They are wicked. There are none who are righteous in themselves, no not one.

If postmortem conversion is in fact possible, why then does the Bible repeatedly direct its many calls to repentance and faith in present terms, and starkly warn against putting off repentance for another day?

2 Cor 6:2 For he says,
“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”
I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

Why would God say something like the above at all, if in fact later will do just as well if one just tries hard enough to be a good person?

Ezek 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31 “Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

It would seem odd for God to say he has no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies if in fact some are offered another chance to repent and believe after death.

If postmortem conversion is possible, it would seem that instead of "Repent and believe the gospel," we should just say to everybody, "Do the best you can, and if you're good enough, God will give you a chance to be saved after all. If you're a Buddhist, just be the best Buddhist you can be. Same goes for the Muslim. Whatever your religion is, just do your best. If it turns out that Christianity is really true and your religion was wrong, God will surely give you a chance to repent if you've been good enough."

Flordiaforever

Bound By Beaulah Posts: 1003 **1/5/12 9:03 pm**

You need to switch coffee! I was not responding to your post! I was finishing up my previous post. If you would read from my first post I was answering 4thgeneration question! Try some prozac and mellow!

Wyatt...

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2295 **1/5/12 9:14 pm**

Then Jesus' preaching to the souls in prison was USELESS?

That is, them being dead, there was ZERO HOPE for them? That was a colossal waste of Jesus' time, no?

Oh, they died before Jesus' death? What about those who died one hour after Jesus' death...in China? Did God suddenly become WORSE about such matters after offering the most amazing grace in the universe?

Something does not ring right here.

Paul said that he was "perfect, as touching the law."

Romans 2 speaks of an "excusing." Does that have zero meaning to God? Then why would He inspire it to be written?

A person can't be saved by their good works...but they may be INTRODUCED to the Savior.

Cornelius was not saved by his alms...but it did apparently ensure that Peter got sent to him.

Floridafoever.

Bound By Beaulah Posts: 1003 **1/5/12 9:15 pm**

I will say this, hell will be full of good people. You advocating salvation by works by what you are saying! Jesus said; I AM the way to heaven, so that tells me if they have not heard of Jesus and don't know Him, the wording of His Word is clear they will not get to heaven. You want a good person who did not go to heaven; read abouyt the rich young ruler. He kept alot of the laws, but he didn't obey Jesus and as far as the Word of God tells us he went to hell. The Word of God stands and is clear, if they don't know Jesus they will not go to heaven. Now if you want to argue, argue with Jesus I will not argue with you!

Re: Wyatt...

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/5/12 10:40 pm**

Wyatt...

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2295 **1/6/12 4:17 pm**

I'll have to let you believe that damnable stuff if you wish.

I would not love a God who would do that. I may bow the knee to Him out of fear. I may go through the rituals and such. But I would not love Him.

After all, what if there's something WE haven't heard, some missing piece that never got told to us, and that also ensures that WE wind up in hell?

"But...but God, we never KNEW about THAT! We have been doing the best we know how. Why didn't you tell us that there was something else that we needed in order to avoid hell???"

A God like that cannot be trusted.

I'm glad I serve One Who can be.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 4:20 pm**

Wow. Just about brought out all the false accusations you could think of with that one, didn't you? Simply amazing. Incredibly childish of you to accuse me of believing "damnable stuff" when all I've done is show my understanding from the Scriptures.

You would not love a God who wouldn't give credit for good deeds as earning a second chance after death? Remarkable.

You would not love a God who truly damns people for sinning against what they know?

You would not love a God who sends the saving message of the gospel to those who diligently seek Him?

You would not love a God who commands all men everywhere to repent now not later?

You would not love a God who will judge all mankind in righteousness, unless He gives a second chance to the 'really good' ones?

It is actually your god that can't be trusted, for he/she/it/whatever says one thing (now is the day of salvation) and then does another (gives second chances after death).

I posted this in hot discussions...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **1/6/12 4:32 pm**

But since nobody read that forum, I'll repost it here.

Why don't we concern ourselves with winning as many souls as is humanly possible. Let's spend our limited time on earth doing our best to insure that nobody dies without hearing the gospel.

Then, when it's all said and done, we leave the decision about Heaven and Hell up to God.

Two things I can say with absolute certainty. First off, God wishes that no human would go to Hell, and He'd do anything to get everyone to make a choice for Jesus. And secondly, what you and I suppose here on earth has absolutely no bearing on reality - that decision is not up to us.

Re: I posted this in hot discussions...

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **1/6/12 5:20 pm**

Wyatt...

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2295 **1/6/12 5:31 pm**

Bro, I didn't mean say anything that I felt was false. I DO believe that if we think that our God is THAT kind of God...that is a damnable position to hold. NOT that it damns you to hell, but that it is so against the most basic notions of justice and righteousness. Nor do I mean that it would send you to hell. Forgive me if I used the wrong word.

You have, however, attributed some things to me that I certainly do not espouse.

I do not think that you "earn" a right to a second chance. I think you earn the right to a FIRST chance...but trying to live as best you know, according to the light you receive.

I have never said that God gives such a chance to "evil" people. That is, if someone has lived a life that condemns them according to the light the DO have, they don't get a chance.

What Paul said on Mars Hill...

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 7:26 pm**

Acts 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean.” 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. NIV

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 7:31 pm**

Again, you keep making the same factual error, FF.

Sin is what deserves damnation--not ignorance of the gospel.

People are not condemned to Hell for what they don't know; they are condemned to Hell for sinning against what they DO know--and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Even the supposedly good ones.

Everybody needs the Savior. The lost (even the 'good' ones) have no way to have their sins taken away/forgiven/atoned for except by the blood of Jesus Christ.

And yes, I absolutely believe God does all he can wisely and benevolently do to save all, and that as Jesus himself said, "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Matt. 7:8

That really is the puzzler, ain't it Q?

Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 **1/6/12 7:39 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 7:51 pm**

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow
Don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May Queen
Yes there are two paths you can go by
but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

And it makes me wonder...ohhh ooh woe

Your head is humming and it won't go -- in case you don´t know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady can you hear the wind blow and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our souls
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all, yeah
To be a rock and not to roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q7Vr3yQYWQ&feature=related

P.S. Don't play it backwards.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 8:05 pm**

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. NIV

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 8:08 pm**

Rom. 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. NIV

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **1/6/12 8:38 pm**

A friend of mine had a rather succinct way of addressing this issue:

No one goes to Hell for not hearing the Gospel. Those who go to Hell go to Hell for sinning against God.

How many Tibetan Buddhists or Amazon jungle tribesmen who haven't heard the Gospel have you met who have never sinned against their own consciences?
_________________
Link

And yet...

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2295 **1/6/12 9:48 pm**

The Bible says that Job was a perfect man.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **1/6/12 9:53 pm**

Not sure where you are getting the idea that I would condemn other religions for saying people go to Hell for what they don't know. I don't. Other religions do not have the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. (Many professing Christians do not have the saving knowledge of Christ, either, but be that as it may). I would generally focus on how other religions in one way or another all teach man's own efforts can save him somehow (not unlike what you seem to believe actually), and how the very idea of a sinner being able to atone for his own sins is positively absurd.

One more time hoping against hope that what I'm saying will finally sink in to your remarkably resistant mind: I do not affirm that anyone is sent to Hell because they don't know the gospel. The reason anyone is condemned to Hell is because they have sinned against what they DO know is right, according to Romans 1, 2, and 3, and ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God--thus the desperate and absolute need for a sinless Savior.

Sin is the disease, and the gospel its only cure.

What you're saying is that some sinners (the really good ones) don't really deserve damnation but instead 'deserve' a chance after death in order for God to be just in judging them, no matter what God's word says about it.

Jesus is the true light that enlightens everyman who comes into the world (Jn 1:9).