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Daniel Rushing |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | First of all, WHAT exactly is it that you perceive that I believe is"the gospell"? |
You stated what you thought the gospel was
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | if it does not bring the knowledge of sin, conviction of sin, and the need and opportunity of salvation by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, then it's not the gospel. |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: |
| Quote: | | From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matt 4:17) |
He is preaching repentance as a requirement of entering the Kingdom. |
Actually, he is not making any requirements per se here. Else, he would have said "to enter the kingdom, you must repent of personal sins." He never says that. The phrase "repent and believe" was a term often used by military officials when they were given a new regiment of men. Josephus the historian was appointed by Rome to sort out some rebel movements in Galilee. He spoke to a fellow Jew and military commander who was on the verge of arousing the wrath of the empire. His words to the comander were metanoesein kai pistos emoi genesesthai, or "repent and believe me." It was a common phrase, which in essence means: "depart from your actions (or thoughts) and embrace my way of doing things."
Thus, Jesus words in regards to the kingdom were not about requirements to enter. They were, in fact, the words to a group of conflicted Jews to now depart from their ways of dealing with Rome (and their neighbors) and embrace his way of doing it. The zealots were to lay down their swords, the tax collectors were to stop their fraud, the peacemakers were to have hope, the mourners were to be comforted, those who hungered and thirsted for justice should now be filled. Why? Because Messiah had come. The "blesser" was present. The "Kingdom of God" was right there before them. The time had come to stop doing things the way Rome does things, and to do them the way Jesus does things.
That is the gospel. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
9/30/12 8:09 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Daniel Rushing wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | First of all, WHAT exactly is it that you perceive that I believe is"the gospell"? |
You stated what you thought the gospel was
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | if it does not bring the knowledge of sin, conviction of sin, and the need and opportunity of salvation by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, then it's not the gospel. |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: |
| Quote: | | From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matt 4:17) |
He is preaching repentance as a requirement of entering the Kingdom. |
Actually, he is not making any requirements per se here. Else, he would have said "to enter the kingdom, you must repent of personal sins." He never says that. The phrase "repent and believe" was a term often used by military officials when they were given a new regiment of men. Josephus the historian was appointed by Rome to sort out some rebel movements in Galilee. He spoke to a fellow Jew and military commander who was on the verge of arousing the wrath of the empire. His words to the comander were metanoesein kai pistos emoi genesesthai, or "repent and believe me." It was a common phrase, which in essence means: "depart from your actions (or thoughts) and embrace my way of doing things."
Thus, Jesus words in regards to the kingdom were not about requirements to enter. They were, in fact, the words to a group of conflicted Jews to now depart from their ways of dealing with Rome (and their neighbors) and embrace his way of doing it. The zealots were to lay down their swords, the tax collectors were to stop their fraud, the peacemakers were to have hope, the mourners were to be comforted, those who hungered and thirsted for justice should now be filled. Why? Because Messiah had come. The "blesser" was present. The "Kingdom of God" was right there before them. The time had come to stop doing things the way Rome does things, and to do them the way Jesus does things.
That is the gospel. |
Well that is so far out that very few on this board or anywhere else will buy into it. Jesus clearly connected repentance to preparing to enter God's kingdom. Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost. Jesus commanded that repentance for the remission of sins be preached in his name starting at Jerusalem. John the Baptist stated that one of the evidences that the kingdom was near was that there was one who would take away sin and baptize them in the Holy Ghost, and he commanded them to repent to prepare for the king's advent.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/30/12 8:21 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: |
He is preaching repentance as a requirement of entering the Kingdom. |
You're right. He preached repentance due to the new covenant being put into place.
He was preaching to turn people unto himself. Your definition of repentance seems to try and turn people to your way of thinking.
Big difference. |
Give me an example. What exactly are you perceiving to be "my way of thinking"?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/30/12 8:23 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| diakoneo wrote: | Some seeker sensitive messages:
The first message by a Pentecostal preacher
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
In his second one Peter said:
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Stephen said:
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
The Mars Hill message:
Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
These guys don't sound very seeker sensitive to me. I think Brother Wilkerson has the right idea, albeit, an unpopular idea. Imagine that? |
Amen!! The Bible says that there are none that seek after God. The only "seeker" is God himself "seeking such to worship Him" and "coming to seek and to save that which was lost".
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/30/12 8:26 pm
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I, and most of my generation, tuned Wilkerson out from that moment on. |
Yes, and it shows in your generation, too. I was only 20 when he made that statement, so I guess I was one of the few in that generation who accepted godly reproof. I think Mylon is great. But he too was guilty of the attitude, "I need to look like a rocker to win young people". I love Petra. They were one of the most sold. But they also went a little overboard at times. But again, it's not just Christian rock. It's ALL Christian entertainment.
But the video I linked nor this topic was meant to be about Christian rock anyway. Did you listen to the message? |
You are simply missing it on this one Resident.... I'm 50.... I was around in the 80's when Mylon was at his peak.... They used to have a thing going at Mt. Paran on Monday nights (forgot the name) using many bands to reach out.... Mylon was himself, he wasn't doing anything to look like anyone.
Dr. Walker fully supported Mylon. Again, Wilkerson was a great man of God with a lot of spiritual insight. He just missed it a few times on things that he didn't fully understand and that was beyond his generation. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
9/30/12 8:45 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I, and most of my generation, tuned Wilkerson out from that moment on. |
Yes, and it shows in your generation, too. I was only 20 when he made that statement, so I guess I was one of the few in that generation who accepted godly reproof. I think Mylon is great. But he too was guilty of the attitude, "I need to look like a rocker to win young people". I love Petra. They were one of the most sold. But they also went a little overboard at times. But again, it's not just Christian rock. It's ALL Christian entertainment.
But the video I linked nor this topic was meant to be about Christian rock anyway. Did you listen to the message? |
You are simply missing it on this one Resident.... I'm 50.... I was around in the 80's when Mylon was at his peak.... They used to have a thing going at Mt. Paran on Monday nights (forgot the name) using many bands to reach out.... Mylon was himself, he wasn't doing anything to look like anyone.
Dr. Walker fully supported Mylon. Again, Wilkerson was a great man of God with a lot of spiritual insight. He just missed it a few times on things that he didn't fully understand and that was beyond his generation. |
I heard an interview of Mylon where he said was given a "thus saith the Lord" from an elder to "grow his hair long again, and put back in those earrings, and rocker dress so you can win more young people". Check out his look on the "More" LP and then see what happened shortly thereafter. Again, I love the man and, like Wilkerson, I don't judge his character or intentions. I'll tell you that I like most Christian rockers more than I do the weak kneed emergent/accommodating type ministries.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
9/30/12 9:07 pm
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Daniel Rushing |
Not sure why that is "out there." That is what the phrase probably meant when used by Jesus. And where exactly does Jesus "clearly" say that repentance to enter the Kingdom of God was the gospel? You will be hard pressed to find such a statement by Jesus.
John does speak of the fruit of repentance. Of course, because repentance is turning from one way of life to another. So of course, it has to be more than must lip service.
Jesus did say, after his resurrection, that repentance would be preached hand in hand with the remission of sins. It seems to me that repentance is what we do, and forgiveness of sins is what He does. For instance, the gospel call to repent was to turn from the nature of sin we had grown acclimated to, and to believe in Jesus' way of doing things. The cross, as God's great climactic act, atoned for our sins and we were forgiven. No doubt, this was part of the good news.
It is strange, though, that Paul doesn't largely speak about the idea of forgiveness. He speaks TONS about being justified (or made righteous), but not about sin forgiveness.
So I don't disagree with the fact that the good news is that through Christ our sins are forgiven. I do, however, find it odd that this preaching is not largely found being done by Jesus Himself as the gospel message. Instead, the gospel according to Jesus was more about the fulfillment of covenant, the coming apocalypse for Israel, and the coronation of Yahweh as the once and for all king of Israel. His statements were largely political in nature, and rarely dealt with one's "personal sins" or the promise of entering the kingdom if one repents.
I really don't have a point to prove. Was just asking the questions I always ask myself when I read the gospels.
And, just FYI, I have no desire of convincing anyone on this board of anything. If anyone comes on here presuming that can do the same, they are in for a rude awakening. However, there are MANY Christians who read Jesus call to repentance the very way I laid it out. And there is very little one can do to dispute that that wasn't exactly what Jesus was saying when he taught the people of Israel. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
9/30/12 11:09 pm
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Jason Isaacs |
For most of us on this board we have to daily remind ourselves that someone putting their faith in Jesus doesn't have to be difficult. We want to make it more difficult. I honestly get the impression from messages like this one, and other speakers the COG promotes at their meetings, that the church should be boring, hard, and so non desirable, that if anyone actually wants to attend than we will know it has to be God drawing them.
The same questions apply for this sound clip as do for Tommy Bates and others.
1. Who? What church are you talking about that doesn't talk about the blood or the cross? Give specifics, stop generalizing "seeker sensitive churches" He even said in his message "I've heard...."
2. Why is your method of church God's way? Every worship or church style is a man made method. There is no "way" to do church that is God approved. They are all acceptable as long as they include prayer, worship, bible teaching, and a chance for people to practice giving.
It's sad really... |
Friendly Face
Posts: 388
10/1/12 8:16 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Jason Isaacs wrote: | For most of us on this board we have to daily remind ourselves that someone putting their faith in Jesus doesn't have to be difficult. We want to make it more difficult. I honestly get the impression from messages like this one, and other speakers the COG promotes at their meetings, that the church should be boring, hard, and so non desirable, that if anyone actually wants to attend than we will know it has to be God drawing them.
The same questions apply for this sound clip as do for Tommy Bates and others.
1. Who? What church are you talking about that doesn't talk about the blood or the cross? Give specifics, stop generalizing "seeker sensitive churches" He even said in his message "I've heard...."
2. Why is your method of church God's way? Every worship or church style is a man made method. There is no "way" to do church that is God approved. They are all acceptable as long as they include prayer, worship, bible teaching, and a chance for people to practice giving.
It's sad really... |
Yes, I agree it's really sad.
Who? Did you want the man to name names? Really? What's being discussed here is a mind set and a philosophy of ministry.
| Quote: | | Why is your method of church God's way? |
Who has described a "method" that is claimed to be God's way? Again, that is not the point. The point is, are we commissioned by Christ to be "accommodating" and "seeker sensitive", or are we supposed to lovingly remind men of their sin in light of God's righteous demands, and the price he paid that those demands might be fulfilled in us? Are we to warn men to flee the wrath to come, or are we to obsess over what THEY are looking for in a church and accommodate them? The sermon mentioned a "formula" used by many of these preachers and churches asking people what THEY are looking for in a church. That is where they are missing it.
As Keith Green said (whose comments on this subject I posted and everyone ignored).....
| Quote: | | All this other stuff is horrible, this "me centered" garbage. Cuz you're the center of the universe, brother! Jesus loved you so much that he came to die for you,you,you!! But Paul lifted Jesus up! Peter lifted Jesus up! The Bible lifts Jesus up! But we today, we lift the sinner up! Oh, mighty sinner! Jesus is down here waiting on you to accept him. And he'll fly up to where you are! It's not humility and it's not salvation. It's a glorification of the person and the sinner. |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/1/12 8:31 am
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Mighty Army |
| I have an idea. You do your ministry and let others do their ministry. People waste time on fussing about what others are doing instead of focusing on winning the lost. It's OK to discuss it among friends but my goodness, when you make it a sermon, all you're doing is running people away who are seeing nothing but division among Christians. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 326
10/1/12 6:34 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Mighty Army wrote: | | I have an idea. You do your ministry and let others do their ministry. People waste time on fussing about what others are doing instead of focusing on winning the lost. It's OK to discuss it among friends but my goodness, when you make it a sermon, all you're doing is running people away who are seeing nothing but division among Christians. |
Agreed. But this message was not about "how you do your ministry", it was about what kind of Jesus we present. The Jesus of the Bible is the "seeker", not us. But he did not "accommodate" then nor does he now.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/1/12 6:53 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I, and most of my generation, tuned Wilkerson out from that moment on. |
Yes, and it shows in your generation, too. I was only 20 when he made that statement, so I guess I was one of the few in that generation who accepted godly reproof. I think Mylon is great. But he too was guilty of the attitude, "I need to look like a rocker to win young people". I love Petra. They were one of the most sold. But they also went a little overboard at times. But again, it's not just Christian rock. It's ALL Christian entertainment.
But the video I linked nor this topic was meant to be about Christian rock anyway. Did you listen to the message? |
You are simply missing it on this one Resident.... I'm 50.... I was around in the 80's when Mylon was at his peak.... They used to have a thing going at Mt. Paran on Monday nights (forgot the name) using many bands to reach out.... Mylon was himself, he wasn't doing anything to look like anyone.
Dr. Walker fully supported Mylon. Again, Wilkerson was a great man of God with a lot of spiritual insight. He just missed it a few times on things that he didn't fully understand and that was beyond his generation. |
I heard an interview of Mylon where he said was given a "thus saith the Lord" from an elder to "grow his hair long again, and put back in those earrings, and rocker dress so you can win more young people". Check out his look on the "More" LP and then see what happened shortly thereafter. Again, I love the man and, like Wilkerson, I don't judge his character or intentions. I'll tell you that I like most Christian rockers more than I do the weak kneed emergent/accommodating type ministries. |
You simply are talking about something you know nothing about skeptic.
I knew Mylon when he released the Stranger to Danger album on MCA. Neither that album or the "More" album looked like he presented himself on stage. He used to laugh how they made him dress up and look for those photos/videos. He was always the same. He didn't change - but how the record companies marketed him did. They finally relented and let Mylon be Mylon. That's the real story.
Wilkerson was completely off base - Mylon was making a difference in young people's lives - especially my own. God renewed his mind - and He used it in his ministry on stage.
Mylon was very remorseful that Wilkerson took the shot at him - when he had never taken the time to get to know him first. In that whole sad episode - Mylon is the one that taught me about grace - and forgiveness - toward Wilkerson - not the other way around. And often when I am misunderstood I think of how Mylon handled the situation the right way. So, yeah, look how my generation turned out - except for some holier than thou's such as yourself - a lot of us turned out pretty good.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
10/1/12 6:56 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I, and most of my generation, tuned Wilkerson out from that moment on. |
Yes, and it shows in your generation, too. I was only 20 when he made that statement, so I guess I was one of the few in that generation who accepted godly reproof. I think Mylon is great. But he too was guilty of the attitude, "I need to look like a rocker to win young people". I love Petra. They were one of the most sold. But they also went a little overboard at times. But again, it's not just Christian rock. It's ALL Christian entertainment.
But the video I linked nor this topic was meant to be about Christian rock anyway. Did you listen to the message? |
You are simply missing it on this one Resident.... I'm 50.... I was around in the 80's when Mylon was at his peak.... They used to have a thing going at Mt. Paran on Monday nights (forgot the name) using many bands to reach out.... Mylon was himself, he wasn't doing anything to look like anyone.
Dr. Walker fully supported Mylon. Again, Wilkerson was a great man of God with a lot of spiritual insight. He just missed it a few times on things that he didn't fully understand and that was beyond his generation. |
I heard an interview of Mylon where he said was given a "thus saith the Lord" from an elder to "grow his hair long again, and put back in those earrings, and rocker dress so you can win more young people". Check out his look on the "More" LP and then see what happened shortly thereafter. Again, I love the man and, like Wilkerson, I don't judge his character or intentions. I'll tell you that I like most Christian rockers more than I do the weak kneed emergent/accommodating type ministries. |
You simply are talking about something you know nothing about skeptic.
I knew Mylon when he released the Stranger to Danger album on MCA. Neither that album or the "More" album looked like he presented himself on stage. He used to laugh how they made him dress up and look for those photos/videos. He was always the same. He didn't change - but how the record companies marketed him did. They finally relented and let Mylon be Mylon. That's the real story.
Wilkerson was completely off base - Mylon was making a difference in young people's lives - especially my own. God renewed his mind - and He used it in his ministry on stage.
Mylon was very remorseful that Wilkerson took the shot at him - when he had never taken the time to get to know him first. In that whole sad episode - Mylon is the one that taught me about grace - and forgiveness - toward Wilkerson - not the other way around. And often when I am misunderstood I think of how Mylon handled the situation the right way. So, yeah, look how my generation turned out - except for some holier than thou's such as yourself - a lot of us turned out pretty good. |
Respectfully, I think you need to forget about this Mylon thing. You admitted that you pretty much tuned Wilkerson out because of the Mylon comments. Are you practicing what you preach? I don't think even Mylon would agree with you. After all, no man is perfect, and maybe Wilkerson did miss it a bit. But if he did miss it, he missed it in the letter of what he said, but not in the spirit. I've had experiences in my life where someone reproved me slightly unfairly, but in my heart I knew there was still truth to what they were saying, and I had to humble myself and admit it. It seems like you threw Dave under the bus because he offended your favorite rock star. Do you think Mylon completely tuned the man out like you did? I doubt it.
Nobody ever questioned the fact that Mylon was making a difference in young people's lives. That's not even in question. But remember, at the same concert there were Christian rockers that had performed before Mylon at that very concert that had on the androgynous paint and tight leather. Wilkerson was right for speaking up, even if he maybe should have done it in private first. But again, you just tune the man out over this? You call me "holier than thou"? I'm not the one that brought up Mylon. You did. And it seems you did it out of a bitter spirit to discredit Wilkerson.
This thread wasn't even about Wilkerson per say. Rather, it was about a philosophy that, as KEITH GREEN put it.."glorifies the sinner" rather than Christ, and becomes a message of "accommodation".
| Quote: | | And often when I am misunderstood I think of how Mylon handled the situation the right way. |
You obviously didn't learn much because in the next line you called me "holier than thou". What would Mylon think of your attack on me? And OUR generation certainly did turn out well in some respects, but we are also the generation that helped foster this whole "gospel of accommodation", and that can't be denied.
And I stand by what I said concerning Mylon being told by an elder to dress a little more wildly. It's been a long time, but I believe some of the controversy had to do with his "Sheep In Wolves' Clothing" tour. To some, that was simply over the top. That's like saying "Christians in Satan's clothing". But again, it was along time ago. Even if was he wrong I don't judge Mylon's whole career and ministry over one incident. We all learn and grow. So please don't get mad. I'm not trying to defame the man. I have most of his music. Guess what? I even listen to some Stryper even though I could not personally recommend their ministry. But some of their songs are good.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/1/12 7:21 pm
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