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Re: I agree with both....

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/19/11 3:18 pm**

Must be both

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **4/20/11 3:05 pm**

It must be both:

Justice because their must be a punishment for the wrong actions of a minister. There must be a sense that a person is paying a penalty for their sin and failure.

Mercy must be present as it is a Biblical mandate for us broken and sinful creations. As we cannot perfectly balance Justice and Mercy like God can, I believe the Text is telling us to err on the side of mercy if we are to err. Mercy must guide us so that we do not become do harsh in our judgements and punishments.

Both must be present for restoration to truly be effective. Justice to remind the person of their sin, mercy to remind them of God's love.
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Pax,

Ray

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/11 3:15 pm**

It cannot be justice. There is absolutely no way one year out of the pulpit is a just penalty/punishment for adultery (or any other sin for that matter). God judges sin as worthy of damnation.

It likewise cannot be about mercy. It does not take a year to receive mercy/forgiveness for one's sins.

Restored to the ministry ...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1994 **4/20/11 5:32 pm**

Being restored to the ministry and getting your position back are two different things. Most who are in the ministry were "licensed" long before they were entrusted with being a pastor or staff minister. Likewise to attain "higher" leadership levels took even longer. When one is faithful there is "double blessing", and one is not there is "double rebuke." To "honor" an unfaithful minister, even one who is "gifted" is to diminish the faithful minister. Faithfulness should be counted as an essential gift for leadership. To restore "fallen" ministers to both ministry and position without a new record of faithfulness is the path of "foolishness."

Mat

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 **4/20/11 5:37 pm**

Sorry, I do not believe I.....

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **4/20/11 6:34 pm**

Posting of the text

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **4/20/11 6:37 pm**

Folks,

Snce the document does have a copyright, I have asked Doyle for his advice. It is his site. If he thinks it is OK, we will find a way to post the entire text.
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Pax,

Ray

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/11 7:01 pm**

Ray,

Why would you think I would believe a minister who commits sexual sin can never be restored? That is definitely not what I mean at all. I'm just saying a year, two years, six months, or whatever amount of time is not the penalty/punishment for sin, nor is it how long it takes for mercy to be granted.

NBF,

I don't know how long would be sufficient to restore a man's reputation, but that is a different question altogether. I honestly don't get where we come up with the one year out of the pulpit thing.

Some may never be fit for ministry again, depending on how they respond to the discipline of the LORD.

When I say integrity, I am referring to spiritual soundness/stability. I agree a minister who commits adultery has lost whatever integrity he may have had.

I see where you are coming from....

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **4/21/11 6:23 am**

OK, got it. But all sin has a death penalty. We can only impose justice and mercy in the temporal sense. we can only provide punishement and restoration in a earthly sense. We as humans can never do true justice or mercy.

we can only work with a minister and try and evaluate if thier repentance is sincere and thier spiritual growth and maturity is on track. There are several indicators that this is progressing, but we can never see into a person's heart.

Only God can bring true justice and mercy as hHis is perfect. Ours is always a dim reflection of the Creator.
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Pax,

Ray

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **4/21/11 10:21 am**

I have a feeling that the punishment will have more to do with their spouse and the interaction there than anything the COG can do. As far as reputation, I don't really worry about that as much. For one thing, if a COG minister fails every 9 days, and I know of 3 in my entire adult life, then there are MANY more that I have never heard of before. So, those men could come pastor my church and I'd never have a second thought about their reputation.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **4/21/11 10:47 am**

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/23/11 5:56 am**

The Bible doesn't have a list of requirements for licensed ministers. That term doesn't show up in the Bible. The Bible does talk about appointing elders. Paul uses elders and bishop interchangeably in Titus 1, and refers to elders of the church in Ephesus as bishops in Acts 20:28. The word bishop is used for those who oversee the flock of God rather than for a denominational administrative position in the New Testament. That verse and I Peter 5 commands elders to pastor the flock of God.

Let us consider the requirements. I bolded a few of them.

I Timothy 3:
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Titus 1
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

I've heard 'husband of one wife' retranslated as 'one woman man.'

So, what should happen when a man no longer fits these requirements after he has been appointed? Is he grandfathered in? Or does he have to step down until he meets the requirements again.

If a man has been through an affair, will he ever meet the requirement to have a good reputation with them who are on the outside? If a divorce has come through his sexual immorality, and he is separated from his kids, does he rule his house well?

If a man has a gift of teaching, Romans 12 commands him to teach. But does the Bible command that a man has a 'right' to be an overseer in the church? I know a lot of people think if a man is gifted to teach or preach the word he is supposed to be 'a pastor' and go full-time. I don't see that idea in the Bible. If a man falls into adultery and repents, he should use his gifts. But does that mean he should be restored to a church government role? If his own family has fallen apart from his sin, should he be responsible for taking care of the household of God?

Are those who think men should not be returned to their roles of responsibility necessarily unmerciful? I don't think so. They may be acting out of mercy for the little lambs.

I also keep in mind that Peter was restored after his sin.

I am asking a lot of questions and not giving a lot of answers here. These are questions I wonder about when it comes to this issue.

I do see the wisdom of having men who have their houses and lives together leading in the church. I know we are all human beings, and none of us have arrived yet. What I don't see in these passages and others like them is where call overrides living up to the requirements.

Can a man fall from a role of oversight? These verses come to mind from Acts 1:

20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

On the other hand, Peter denied the Lord, but he hung around long enough to get forgiven and restored by the Lord. The way Judas hung around was different.
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Re: I had the opportunity to read Dr Gause's paper

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/24/11 3:17 am**

Re: No intention to smack bi-vocational pastors...

Member Posts: 41 **5/2/11 5:11 am**

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