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 Satan is not omnipresent |
Eddie Robbins |
| I’m talking about Lucifer himself. None of us have ever come in contact with him more than likely. Yet, people are always saying what the Devil is doing to them, personally. For one thing, he doesn’t have to. We do most of it to ourselves. There are evil spirits roaming around messing with us but not Satan. He is not omnipresent. Where do you think he is? He’s not the ruler of hell either. He wants nothing to do with that place. |
Acts-pert Poster
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4/16/19 9:36 am
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diakoneo |
| Agree |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
4/16/19 8:33 pm
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| Nor are there two equally powerful beings |
roughridercog |
Fighting it out. God is limitless; Satan is not.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
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4/17/19 8:50 am
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| Re: Nor are there two equally powerful beings |
Cojak |
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| Are y'all trying to say that God IS omnipresent? |
Aaron Scott |
| While I believe that theologically, I don't know that I have a single verse that bears that out clearly. Anyone? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/17/19 1:38 pm
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| Re: Are y'all trying to say that God IS omnipresent? |
Eddie Robbins |
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DrDuck |
| Nor is Satan omnipotent, nor omniscient. Since Satan does not have these attributes of God, as some seem to think, it is true that few people have ever had a personal, one on one encounter with him. |
Acts-celerater
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4/17/19 5:14 pm
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| Eddie... |
Aaron Scott |
These verses certainly can be taken to show omnipresent, but they can also go against it. Yes, God has information no everything...but is He everywhere at once...that is the scripture I cannot find. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/17/19 10:17 pm
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| Re: Eddie... |
Tom Sterbens |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
These verses certainly can be taken to show omnipresent, but they can also go against it. Yes, God has information no everything...but is He everywhere at once...that is the scripture I cannot find. |
Aaron,
Do you believe that God created time, space and matter? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4508
4/18/19 12:48 am
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| Re: Eddie... |
Aaron Scott |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: |
These verses certainly can be taken to show omnipresent, but they can also go against it. Yes, God has information no everything...but is He everywhere at once...that is the scripture I cannot find. |
Aaron,
Do you believe that God created time, space and matter? |
Tom,
Yes, as a matter of faith and belief. Can I explain WHERE God was before He created Space? Can I explain WHAT God was doing before time (which involves change)? No, I can't. (Matter could be argued to be non-spiritual, and thus it could be held that God, being non-matter, could create matter.)
But do note that my argument is not against omnipresence, but is rather questioning whether we have solid scripture to back that, as opposed to it simply being, Anselm-like, an abstract exercise that says, "It is better to be everywhere than just in one place, therefore, since God is better than anything, He must be omnipresent."
Make a lick of sense? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/18/19 9:03 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Aaron,
It's a function of God's transcendence. The fact that He is the creator of time, matter, and space necessitates that He is not bound by it. This is one of many things that makes the incarnation so special -- God choosing, in Christ, to enter into and be bound by the temporal and spatial limitations of His creation. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/18/19 11:57 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Aaron,
It's a function of God's transcendence. The fact that He is the creator of time, matter, and space necessitates that He is not bound by it. This is one of many things that makes the incarnation so special -- God choosing, in Christ, to enter into and be bound by the temporal and spatial limitations of His creation. |
Yep... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4508
4/18/19 12:48 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Where can I go to hide from God? If He is not omnipresent, there are places I can go. I know one place. Death for the unbeliever. God is not there and separation has happened for all eternity. |
Acts-pert Poster
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4/18/19 1:07 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Where can I go to hide from God? If He is not omnipresent, there are places I can go. I know one place. Death for the unbeliever. God is not there and separation has happened for all eternity. |
“If anyone worships the beast . . . he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever†(Revelation 14:9–11)
Other verses (such as 2 Thessalonians 1:9) reference this being "away from the presence of the Lord" but taken together it is not clear that the eternal separation of unbelievers is a separation in the sense that it would imperil our notion of God's omnipresence.
If one subscribes to annihilationism then this is certainly a separation, but it is a separation as a result of the non-existence of the unbeliever. This also does not challenge our notion of God's omnipresence.
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 4/18/19 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/18/19 1:20 pm
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| Dave and Tom... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Aaron,
It's a function of God's transcendence. The fact that He is the creator of time, matter, and space necessitates that He is not bound by it. This is one of many things that makes the incarnation so special -- God choosing, in Christ, to enter into and be bound by the temporal and spatial limitations of His creation. |
Anselm's argument was that God was the highest conception we could have. And so, since existence is higher than non-existence, God must exist. Lots of issues with that, but still.
Consider that we have "declared" God omnipresent NOT because it is stated in scripture, but because omnipresence is higher than presence.
I'm not saying that God isn't omnipresent. I'm simply arguing that I have not been able to clearly find it in scripture.
Consider that the devil shows up wherever you go. I could go to Mars. Do I suppose the Tempter might be there and be up to no good? Of course. Omnipresent? No.
Lastly, I'm not sure it logically MUST be the case that God is omnipresent if He created time and space (see my earlier concerns on this). Yes, I think God IS omnipresent, but so far, I am not sure that I have scripture or reason to lend support.
What I DO have (and to a great degree it is represented in scripture in so many words) is that if the Holy Ghost is moving in Australia...but also in Tennessee AT THE SAME TIME...well, there is either quantum entanglement going on (SMILE), the Holy Ghost is so huge that all places are "within" Him, or (assuming there is no other explanation) He IS omnipresent. I believe the latter, but that is not based on absolute reason or scripture, I don't think. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
4/18/19 1:21 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Aaron,
There are many things that are clearly and properly inferred from Scripture rightly divided, while not overtly stated themselves. It is unwise IMO to be cautious about these things on the basis that they are not overtly stated in Scripture.
When considering the attributes of God, theologians have traditionally broken them into two categories, communicable and incommunicable. The former being attributes He shares with His creation, the latter being attributes He does not.
There are two non-communicable attributes that are clearly founded in Scripture, and clearly establish God's omnipresence. Those attributes are God's transcendence and His immanence.
You should be able to find information about these and their strong underlying Scriptural support in most any systematic theology. I personally would recommend Michael Horton's "The Christian Faith" as an excellent introduction on this topic. A.W. Tozer's book "The Attributes of God" is a great one as well.
Dave |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/18/19 1:25 pm
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| Re: Dave and Tom... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | well, there is either quantum entanglement going on (SMILE), the Holy Ghost is so huge that all places are "within" Him, or (assuming there is no other explanation) He IS omnipresent. I believe the latter, but that is not based on absolute reason or scripture, I don't think. |
You are correct. 
The former (all things being within God) is a description of pantheism. Pantheism is a logical result of affirming God's immanence while denying His transcendence. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/18/19 1:29 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Where can I go to hide from God? If He is not omnipresent, there are places I can go. I know one place. Death for the unbeliever. God is not there and separation has happened for all eternity. |
“If anyone worships the beast . . . he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever†(Revelation 14:9–11)
Other verses (such as 2 Thessalonians 1:9) reference this being "away from the presence of the Lord" but taken together it is not clear that the eternal separation of unbelievers is a separation in the sense that it would imperil our notion of God's omnipresence.
If one subscribes to annihilationism then this is certainly a separation, but it is a separation as a result of the non-existence of the unbeliever. This also does not challenge our notion of God's omnipresence. |
That brings up a whole different subject. I think you know that I do not believe that the soul is immortal. Only believers get eternal life. That same eternal fire it talks about from Sodom and Gomorrah no longer burns. The Bible is full of symbolism. |
Acts-pert Poster
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4/18/19 1:38 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | That brings up a whole different subject. I think you know that I do not believe that the soul is immortal. Only believers get eternal life. That same eternal fire it talks about from Sodom and Gomorrah no longer burns. The Bible is full of symbolism. |
Sure, that's why I mentioned it. I don't see any reason to get into that discussion, I just wanted to point out that even if one holds to annihilationism, omnipresence isn't challenged as a result. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
4/18/19 1:44 pm
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