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 Patrick.... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | Wouldn't change my mind in the least. Same as if science proved evolution was true and factual.
I'd still believe the creation exactly like I always have.
No implication for me. Orientation is a choice.
Does that make me stubborn? Yes
Does that make me narrow and closed minded? Yes
My dear brother, this is not a banner to wave proudly. If you indeed ARE being narrow and close-minded, you are likely hurting a lot of people unnecessarily. It is better to go for the truth, no matter what it might be.
Do I really care what others believe or thing? Not so much.
Patrick. |
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 11:47 am
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| Pastor Moody.... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | God does not make anyone a homosexual. It is a choice. Biblical order is clear. Cows cannot produce calves without a bull. God's law cannot be changed.
Pastor Moody, with great respect, my dear brother, does God make some children to be born without arms, eyes, or legs? Does God cause some children to run over by drunk drivers?
No. But it happens; a result of the Fall.
Same with homosexuality. God doesn't "make" them that way, but it happens. It will get a big "amen" if you preach that it's a choice. It will bring down the rafters if you preach that God makes no one a homosexual. But the truth is more complex.
Some young children, LONG BEFORE they even know what sex is, have inclinations to the same sex. It might be from genetic issues, it might be from molestation, it might be from having a too dominant mother, it might be from having a too distant father. We simply do not know all the causes.
But it is NOT a choice. Who in the world would choose to be the butt of cruel jokes, to risk being beat up for being different, to risk alienation from their family, to risk deadly disease?
I will agree that a persons surroundings greatly effect one's preferences for anything. However, to say one believes he is born this way is absolutely contrary to scriptures. God would not and cannot contradict His word.
Show me anywhere in scripture to support the idea of us being born with a homosexual orientation. There are instances in scriptures where people were born with physical handicaps, but I have never seen this idea of "God made me this way," to be supported with scripture.
No, God didn't "make" them that way anymore than he makes a baby die from meningitis. It's part of the twisted fabric of fallen humanity. Some children are born with defects. One of those defects might be a propensity to the opposite sex, we do not know. I think, like you, that most of the problem is due to early childhood issues. But when you think about it, a gay person could just as well say, "God allowed these things to happen to me as a child, so He must have wanted me this way."
No, not at all. It's the result of sin. God doesn't want you that way just because you ARE that way.
The point being that EVEN IF we did find out that at least some homosexuals are indeed born that way, it would not invalidate God's word. Didn't Paul himself address than when he wrote, (Rom 9:20 KJV) "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
Very simply, EVEN IF you are born with certain predilections, you must deal with them. You were born, as were all (or most) of us men, with certain innate desires for the opposite sex. Yet had you been a raging fornicator, you could not righteously look into God's eyes and say, "But you made me this way!"
No. However you are made, you are still commanded to obey God's law.
Homosexual, heterosexual, whatever--we must submit to God's law. We have not excuse just because we claim (or even actually are) "born that way."
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 11:58 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
FF,
The reason God didn't take away your (or my) desire for a woman as a single man is because that is a natural one. God doesn't take away our desire for food, warmth, friendship, socialization, etc., because these all are a part of the created order.
What I said earlier about 'orientation' is simply meant to point out that the Bible nowhere depicts homosexual desire or activity as natural but in fact as unnatural and severely depraved (Rom 1), and Paul says to the Corinthians "such were some of you, but ye were washed...sanctified...justified." Nowhere does the Bible indicate that someone is just basically hardwired to be homosexual. It may indeed be an unnatural, twisted, perverted desire some may have, but that in no way means we should buy into the modern psychological theory of 'orientation' (which secular psychology says is immutable).
Back when I was an alcoholic, I had an unnatural desire for whiskey. God took away ALL desire for any kind of hard liquor when He saved and set me free. Some may struggle more than others, yes, but ultimately it comes down to whether or not we believe God's word or the theories of secular pscyhiatrists. I am SO glad I didn't listen to the psychologists and AA who all told me I would always and forever be a drunk, and the best I could hope for in this life was to be a "dry drunk." (I will grant that if not for the sanctifying power of GOD, I certainly would have no better hope than these uninspired people offered).
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 9/27/11 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 1:10 pm
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| floridaforever |
C. Chris Moody |
Being born without eyes, crippled, and many other birth defect disorders are recorded in the Bible. Show me where one person was born a homosexual. It does not exist, because this would break the nature of God. It is certainly a choice. Everything we do in life is a choice. Your logic is severely warped.
For instance, I dont want to get up and go to the office today...God made me this way...so therefore i cant help it...i will be lazy... God made me this way...because of the fall...I am lazy...
Our environment is significant in our orientation. However, one cannot prove to me scripturally the position of being born gay. That is contrary to God's DNA. I will say it again... two bulls cannot produce a calf, and neither can two heifers produce a calf.
Do I believe we have missed this culture and been insensitive to their needs...ABSOLUTELY!!! BUT, to embrace this concept, "God made me this way," is false teaching and lends itself to tolerating the sin, because if God made them this way, get ready for number 2. Number 2, if God made me this way, then it ok for me to be homosexual.
This slippery slope of being culturally relevant to society is dangerous. I know some of you will call me an elitist, or exclusivist, or holier than thou, but we had better see through the deception of the enemy |
Belt Jerker
Posts: 511
9/27/11 1:16 pm
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| Chris Moody... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | Being born without eyes, crippled, and many other birth defect disorders are recorded in the Bible. Show me where one person was born a homosexual. It does not exist, because this would break the nature of God. It is certainly a choice. Everything we do in life is a choice. Your logic is severely warped.
Show me where one person was born with spinal bifida? Or without arms. Or a cleft palate. Yet these things exist. Again, the BEHAVIOR is wrong. The orientation is almost certainly not a choice. Again, who in the world would CHOOSE such a terrible path with all that it entails???
Behavior is a choice. Orientation is something far more nuanced, I am convinced.
For instance, I dont want to get up and go to the office today...God made me this way...so therefore i cant help it...i will be lazy... God made me this way...because of the fall...I am lazy...
No, that was precisely what I was arguing AGAINST. Paul lets us know that we don't get to push off on God and say, "God, you made me this way!" If you're born lazy, you STILL are called to not be lazy. If you are born with a homosexual orientation (and I'm not saying a person IS; I'm saying it's conceivable that such could take place), you are STILL called to live righteously in body and mind.
Our environment is significant in our orientation. However, one cannot prove to me scripturally the position of being born gay. That is contrary to God's DNA. I will say it again... two bulls cannot produce a calf, and neither can two heifers produce a calf.
But, Chris, the environment that a child is raised in is no more that child's choice than the genes he is born with. You say that no one can be born with it--apparently God would not allow it. Yet He clearly allows environments to persist that warp a child's sexual orientation. What moral difference does it make whether the child is born with it or otherwise acquires it without his consent?
ANY flaw is contrary to God's DNA. IF IF IF one can be born with a homosexual orientation, it is a flaw--one that the person is called upon to resist.
The gluttonous man may have been born hungry. He's still called to temperance.
Um, yes, you are correct: I indeed have never heard of two bulls producing a calf. Nor two heifers. Has there been some debate about whether this is so? That doesn't prove that no one is born flawed. A person who would be born with a homosexual orientation (assuming that can happen), or even with a propensity for it, is born with a defect. This doesn't make them a bad person; just one that is going to have to work a little harder than the rest of us, perhaps.
Do I believe we have missed this culture and been insensitive to their needs...ABSOLUTELY!!! BUT, to embrace this concept, "God made me this way," is false teaching and lends itself to tolerating the sin, because if God made them this way, get ready for number 2. Number 2, if God made me this way, then it ok for me to be homosexual.
As I have pointed out earlier, this is not my argument at all. EVEN if God made someone that way, they are STILL commanded to walk uprightly.
IF you're argument is correct, then what prevents the homosexual from saying, "God ALLOWED me to be raised in an environment that turned me gay, so it's OK to be gay"?
Rather, it is better to say, "NO MATTER WHY you are the way you are, you are called to walk uprightly."
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 1:30 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | FF,
The reason God didn't take away your (or my) desire for a woman as a single man is because they were/are natural ones. God doesn't take away our desire for food, warmth, friendship, socialization, etc., because these all are a part of the created order.
Yeah, but I didn't need that strong of a desire to be attracted to women (ha!)
What I said earlier about 'orientation' is simply meant to point out that the Bible nowhere depicts homosexual desire or activity as natural but in fact as unnatural and severely depraved (Rom 1), and Paul says to the Corinthians "such were some of you, but ye were washed...sanctified...justified." Nowhere does the Bible indicate that someone is just basically hardwired to be homosexual. It may indeed be an unnatural, twisted, perverted desire some may have, but that in no way means we should buy into the modern psychological theory of 'orientation' (which secular psychology says is immutable).
I do believe that homosexual orientation is unnatural, EVEN if one is born with it. That is, even if it is genetic, it is not natural in that it deviates from the normal order. That being said, orientation is not, I don't think, a sin. Of course, if you are lusting in your heart, that's another thing.
But just as my heterosexual orientation causes me to like women, I am called upon to resist the temptation to lust after them in my heart.
It is the ACTIVATING of that orientation (for lack of a better term) that brings behavior issues.
Back when I was an alcoholic, I had an unnatural desire for whiskey. God took away ALL desire for any kind of hard liquor when He saved and set me free. Some may struggle more than others, yes, but ultimately it comes down to whether or not we believe God's word or the theories of secular pscyhiatrists. I am SO glad I didn't listen to the psychologists and AA who all told me I would always and forever be a drunk, and the best I could hope for in this life was to be a "dry drunk." (I will grant that if not for the sanctifying power of GOD, I certainly would have no better hope than these uninspired people offered). |
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 1:35 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Similar to probably most normal males who are trying to live a Christian life, I used to feel quite condemned because I simply misread Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount. He doesn't say lust/desire in and of itself is a sin. He says looking on a woman "to lust after her" is adultery in the heart:
Matt. 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
(That is, it is a volitional thing one chooses to do, not just simply an involuntary desire, which Jesus here condemns).
So again, it's a question of choice. I would agree with you to the extent that those who feel homosexual desires are forbidden by God to act on those desires (just as you and I are forbidden to sin in our hearts by looking on a woman to lust after her). I would also say that according to 1 Cor. 6:9-11 a truly converted, sanctified and Spirit-filled person who may have formerly been an abuser of himself with men (homosexual) should have faith to believe God's word that he can be set free from his perversion.
1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 9/27/11 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 1:46 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| WHY would anyone CHOOSE to be a homosexual? Is it something that you all think would be fun and would be a choice? I don't get it. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/27/11 1:46 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | WHY would anyone CHOOSE to be a homosexual? Is it something that you all think would be fun and would be a choice? I don't get it. |
Why would anyone choose to be an alcoholic or a drug addict? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 1:49 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I will agree that there are some things that are probably not consciously chosen in these things. I think all such destructive lifestyles are probably demonic in origin as far as desire is concerned, since Satan desires nothing but to steal, kill, and destroy. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 1:51 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Taking one drink or smoking one joint as the beginning step to those things is a little different than one kiss with the same sex. I can see the lure in feeling good by having drink or smoking a joint (though I never have) but that first kiss with the same sex is just not the same lure. Do YOU think it is??? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/27/11 1:53 pm
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Troy Hamby |
M | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | WHY would anyone CHOOSE to be a homosexual? Is it something that you all think would be fun and would be a choice? I don't get it. |
Why would anyone choose to be an alcoholic or a drug addict? |
From experience I can assure u drugs and alcohol are very fun... |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2458
9/27/11 1:58 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Taking one drink or smoking one joint as the beginning step to those things is a little different than one kiss with the same sex. I can see the lure in feeling good by having drink or smoking a joint (though I never have) but that first kiss with the same sex is just not the same lure. Do YOU think it is??? |
Some may be exposed to homosexual activity as children, often well before they have even heard it might be wrong. The simple fact is it usually feels good to have one's genitals touched. Even little babies will touch themselves--especially boys.
Like I said earlier, I think demons have a role to play in homosexuality as well. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 2:01 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Troy Hamby wrote: | M | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | WHY would anyone CHOOSE to be a homosexual? Is it something that you all think would be fun and would be a choice? I don't get it. |
Why would anyone choose to be an alcoholic or a drug addict? |
From experience I can assure u drugs and alcohol are very fun... |
I can say from experience as well that they are fun to an extent, but being an alcoholic or addict is definitely NOT fun. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 2:01 pm
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C. Chris Moody |
Here is bottom line for me. God does not birth anyone into homosexuality. The statement "God made me this way," is the prevailing statement made by the homosexual community. If we buy that line, then you better be able to respond to...if God made me this way then this is ok... The problem is God never made them that way.................
FloridaForever I really believe a person can have tendencies. However, to stamp God's name on the blame is outrageous. There are instances of people having ailments from birth... I still have never found one where one was born a homosexual. I agree with your theological stand on not acting upon the desire. However, that desire did not come by God making them this way. It happened when they chose to be gay and act upon those feelings. Being born with a physical ailment is totally different than a behavior issue.
I guess what i am struggling with... what is meant by orientation. I perceive that to mean God made me this way. I dont buy this and never will. |
Belt Jerker
Posts: 511
9/27/11 2:04 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
Did we choose the behavior of heterosexuality?
Last edited by Eddie Robbins on 9/27/11 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/27/11 2:10 pm
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| Chris Moody... |
FloridaForever |
Well, if you preach compassionately, then whether you believe a person can be born that way, or you believe that a person becomes that way through other influences, I think the effect will still be positive.
I'm not convinced that a person can be born that way. However, at the same time, I see not problem with the church's stance even if they are born that way. We would simply say, "Doth not nature itself...." In other words, we could STILL say, "No matter how you got this way, you are still called to righteous living."
We will just have to agree to disagree on this fine point. But I cannot see how you can go wrong so long as you preach in love. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 2:10 pm
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| Wyatt.... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | | Why would anyone choose to be an alcoholic or a drug addict? |
I cannot imagine that anyone DOES choose to become this way. Rather, they become ensnared. They were just happy to get a little buzz...and now they can't do without it.
That being said, one of the reason that Indians are prone to alcoholism is because their genetics is such that alcohol has a stronger effect on them than on others. So they get a big bang for the buck, so to speak, which makes them susceptible to the dangers of alcohol.
I think a person can be born so that certain environmental factors can affect them more strongly in terms of sexual orientation. I make no "doctrine" of that, but believe it is likely true. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 2:13 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Did we choose the behavior of heterosexuality? |
We don't have to. It's the default (normal) setting. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
9/27/11 2:19 pm
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Jason Moore |
| p5harri wrote: | Wouldn't change my mind in the least. Same as if science proved evolution was true and factual.
I'd still believe the creation exactly like I always have.
No implication for me. Orientation is a choice.
Does that make me stubborn? Yes
Does that make me narrow and closed minded? Yes
Do I really care what others believe or thing? Not so much.
Patrick. |
Nice. It's a wonder we haven't won the world yet.
Edit: Sorry Patrick...the above line was kind of mean, and though sarcasm is my love language, it's not a great way to win a debate.
What I meant to say is, that I don't think we as humans always have the luxury of such mental foreclosure. The reason? We don't know everything yet. At one point in our history black men were considered 3/5 of a white man. That turned out to not be such a good idea. Someday we will be with Jesus and the veil will be lifted. We will see things we have never considered, have knowledge that was previously unattainable and perspective that is exponentially more broad than it is today. But now we see through a glass darkly. This alone should cause us to walk in humility (not like my first line above) and in dependency on Jesus. Walking in love and as messengers of healing rather than condemnation or judgement.
Grace and peace, and hopefully your forgiveness for that first line up there.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine
Last edited by Jason Moore on 9/27/11 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 720
9/27/11 3:14 pm
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