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Brad,
What is his source for this? Which early Christian authors is he referring to?
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6/2/17 8:59 am
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bradfreeman |
| Link wrote: | Brad,
What is his source for this? Which early Christian authors is he referring to? |
I'm sorry Link, but I don't understand. Who is sourcing early Christian authors?
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6/2/17 9:27 am
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| I have |
bonnie knox |
the gift of interpretation. 
| Link wrote: | Brad,
What is his source for this? Which early Christian authors is he referring to? |
Link, Tim Hill is talking about the fathers of the Church of God (folks like Tomlinson, for example), not folks like Augustine.  |
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6/2/17 10:25 am
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| Re: I have |
bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | the gift of interpretation.
| Link wrote: | Brad,
What is his source for this? Which early Christian authors is he referring to? |
Link, Tim Hill is talking about the fathers of the Church of God (folks like Tomlinson, for example), not folks like Augustine. |
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6/2/17 10:35 am
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| Re: What do you believe about Tim Hill's "if's?" |
Aaron Scott |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | From Tim Hill's "Tithe of Tithe" Special Message:
| Quote: | Those early church fathers rightfully believed that if believers
could be blessed by tithing, then a corporate blessing could also be on the local church if it also tithed. |
Are we already blessed with every blessing that can be spoken in Christ (Eph 1:3; Gal 3:9)?
Or are we blessed "if" we tithe?
Please provide scripture for your views. |
Notice that he did not say that ONLY if you tithe are you blessed.
Notice that he did not say that you MUST tithe to be blessed.
Notice that he did not say that tithing is commanded for NT believers.
He wisely stayed within very acceptable parameters.
I love the song "Sweet Holy Spirit" which has a verse that says:
There are blessing you cannot receive
Until you know Him in His fullness and believe.
Anyone that tells you that you are already as blessed as you are going to be is WRONG. Or that nothing you can do will provide more blessing. The Bible says to pray to prophesy. Now, if that gift is BETTER than the gift of tongues, then we can SEEK a greater blessing/reward/gift than we had.
Likewise, yes, you can be blessed without tithing. But you can be MORE blessed BY tithing. Even if that blessing is nothing more than the knowledge that you are doing your part to support missions, that is still more of a blessing than the others got by keeping their money. |
Thanks Aaron,
Do you believe we've already been blessed with every blessing in Heavenly places in Christ?
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Do you believe that, when we received Christ, we freely received all things?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Did Paul, Peter, John or James ever pray that any believer would be blessed?
Do you buy blessing with money?
Do you grow blessing by sowing money?
Aren't we now the ones who "bless and curse not"? |
We have, the Bible says, received the EARNEST of our inheritance. We will receive ALL of it at some point.
Consider this: A person who gets saved has received the Lord...but they have not yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit, which clearly is a blessing they did not have before.
A sick Christian who has not yet been healed will, upon being healed, receive something they didn't have before.
We have to understand these verses in a way that means we are HEIRS of these things...but that does not mean we already have everything delivered to us. |
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6/2/17 10:43 am
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| Brad... |
Aaron Scott |
Consider the number of times that Paul said something like "grace be MULTIPLIED" to you.
Consider that John said, "I wish above all things...."
This has more than a little indication that they were wanting them to go even further in God's riches, etc.
When an heir turns a certain age, their inheritance is often released to them. Consider that there might also be blessings that, until we take this or that step in faith or obedience, we do not receive. In other words, it may be that we WILL receive it...but it will be delayed by lack of obedience or faith. |
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6/2/17 10:46 am
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Charles Page |
Aaron, are you an ox that treads out the grain?
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6/2/17 12:27 pm
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Charles Page |
I see you are
the son of an ox
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Sanctification is subsequent to the new birth |
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6/2/17 12:29 pm
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| Re: What do you believe about Tim Hill's "if's?" |
bradfreeman |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | We have, the Bible says, received the EARNEST of our inheritance. We will receive ALL of it at some point.
Consider this: A person who gets saved has received the Lord...but they have not yet been baptized in the Holy Spirit, which clearly is a blessing they did not have before.
A sick Christian who has not yet been healed will, upon being healed, receive something they didn't have before.
We have to understand these verses in a way that means we are HEIRS of these things...but that does not mean we already have everything delivered to us. |
I believe: When we received Christ, we received freely "all things", "every spiritual blessing" and we are "complete". What happens to us is that we experience more and more as the eyes of our understanding are enlightened to know who we are and what we possess.
The "earnest" is the firstfruits of the Spirit. The completion will be our glorified human body, when we see Him.
As Ephesians 1 and Gal 4 both say, we have already "obtained an inheritance in the saints". We ARE the owners of everything.
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, Eph 1:10,11
Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
We already have:
None of it came by works, tithing or anything other than grace (Eph 2:4-10)
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6/2/17 2:11 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Carolyn Smith wrote: | | There is more than one kind of seed, Brad. And we are not birds. It seems to me the point of the scripture here is more not to worry than about sowing & reaping. |
Jesus is telling His listeners that, if God cares for birds and flowers without them sowing or reaping or toiling or spinning, He will surely do it for us.
I agree that any expression of the love of God in us toward others can sow the message of His love into their hearts. But Jesus clearly taught that the seed is a message (see the parable of the sower).
As for 2 Cor 8 and 9, Paul start in 8:1 by reminding the Corinthians how the afflicted church in Macedonia had generously given to "the support of the saints" and how the Corinthians had pledged to do the same. This is the crux of these 2 chapters. It's about how the Corinthians generous support of the saints will reap a harvest of thanksgiving from those who were struggling.
| Quote: | | I do believe in tithing, and I do believe there is a blessing associated with tithing. But it is not just the giving of the money that brings blessing...it is the giving of your tithe WITH FAITH. |
There is no blessing that comes from keeping the law, only a curse. The law is simply not of faith.
Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
There is a blessing associated with Jesus fulfilling the tithe and opening the windows of Heaven for us.
| Quote: | | I don't tithe because I can afford it. The world teaches that we should "pay ourselves first" by putting a tenth in our savings account of 401k. Our finances have never been great, but when I give my tithe to God, I honor Him not just with my finances but with my faith. If I put Him and His Kingdom's work first, then He will see to it that my needs are met. |
What scripture do you use to define what your tithe is, when to give it?
| Quote: | | People like to say Jesus never talked about tithes, but He said this in Matthew 23:23, " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." |
I never say Jesus didn't talk about tithing. He told law-keepers that they should be keeping the law. He also told them they should show themselves to a Levite offer an animal sacrifice when they are healed:
Mat 8:4 And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
He never told anyone to break the law of Moses. Where does Paul mention it, or Peter, or John? How come the Acts 15 counsel didn't tell the Gentiles they needed to tithe?
You cannot buy blessing. God isn't selling. He freely gives us all things.
Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. |
I am not talking about buying blessing. Really, Brad...you have no clue what I am talking about. This would be why I don't even usually read your threads.
Yeah...I'm done.
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6/2/17 5:36 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | I am not talking about buying blessing. Really, Brad...you have no clue what I am talking about. This would be why I don't even usually read your threads.
Yeah...I'm done. |
Carolyn, I"m sorry you're frustrated. But you don't hear what you're saving.
Here is your statement:
| Quote: | | If I put Him and His Kingdom's work first, then He will see to it that my needs are met. |
When you preach this, do your people hear that God's care for them is conditional?
Your Father's care is unconditional. He sends the sun and the rain on everyone. He is kind to the evil and ungrateful. He feeds and clothes the birds and the flowers. His love is unconditional and He doesn't just love in word, He loves in deed and truth.
Here is your statement:
| Quote: | | I do believe in tithing, and I do believe there is a blessing associated with tithing. But it is not just the giving of the money that brings blessing...it is the giving of your tithe WITH FAITH. |
There is a blessing associated with tithing?
Does this mean: "If I tithe and believe God will bless me because I tithe, then He will bless me"?
Can you see the leaven of believing God will bless you because you give money and believe that is brings blessing as opposed to believing your Father is good and has already blessed you and will take care of you?
You're faith is in your tithe (exactly as in the Old Covenant), in you and your faithfulness to kingdom work.
Did Simon the sorcerer believe that, if He gave Peter money, then Peter would give him the ability to give the Holy Spirit to people?
Peter thought he did:
Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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6/3/17 5:23 am
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bonnie knox |
| Is "give and it shall be given unto you" conditional? |
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6/3/17 6:18 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Is "give and it shall be given unto you" conditional? |
Of course it is. Let's put that in context:
Luke 6:32 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.
This is how the world works. It gives expecting to get.
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
This is how your Father works. He gives expecting nothing in return.
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
In the natural, people give to get back what they are given. In the Spiritual, the Most High doesn't give like a "sinner" expecting something in return. He gives because He is good.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
What do you suppose they were blind to? What was Jesus trying to help them see? A principle? Or the Father?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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Posts: 9027
6/3/17 6:30 am
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bonnie knox |
Is this conditional?
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. |
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6/3/17 6:56 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Is this conditional?
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. |
Now you're getting there Bonnie. Faith is the only condition. Keep seeking and you'll find.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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6/3/17 8:34 am
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bonnie knox |
Faith without works is dead.
Faith is the foundation, but there are numerous verses that do indeed speak of conditional things that require us to ask, to be diligent, to give, etc., etc. |
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6/3/17 11:56 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Faith without works is dead.
Faith is the foundation, but there are numerous verses that do indeed speak of conditional things that require us to ask, to be diligent, to give, etc., etc. |
The righteous man lives by faith. It's faith, not works, that saves. When we believe that our Father is good, is for us and is taking care of us, it produces His fearless, generous, loving life in us...we give, we do.
We don't give or ask or do in order to buy His blessing or life or righteousness. All of those things are freely given to those who ask in faith. Not faith that we've paid enough, or prayed enough or given enough. Faith that the Father who takes care of the birds and flowers without paying, or toiling will take care of us.
When we give or "sow" the seed of the word of the kingdom or a generous gift, it's not us sowing or giving in order to prompt a response of generosity from our Father. It's our Father in us sowing or giving. He has already given seed to the sower. He has already supplied us with a heart of love, a message and cash to sow.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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Posts: 9027
6/4/17 7:01 am
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bonnie knox |
I don't really know if your quibble is with the way Tim Hill worded his statement or with the whole idea of the local churches being required to give a certain percentage to the organization.
I do think a case can be made for it being more blessed to give than to receive.
If what the money is being spent on shows out-of-whack priorities, that should be addressed.
Most Christians I know are very much willing to give money if they believe it facilitates the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ. |
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6/4/17 8:01 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | I don't really know if your quibble is with the way Tim Hill worded his statement or with the whole idea of the local churches being required to give a certain percentage to the organization.
I do think a case can be made for it being more blessed to give than to receive.
If what the money is being spent on shows out-of-whack priorities, that should be addressed.
Most Christians I know are very much willing to give money if they believe it facilitates the spread of the gospel of Jesus Christ. |
I don't think Tim Hill poorly worded his message at all. I think his wording would be your wording and the wording of many.
I don't have any quibble with membership fees to an organization. That's the choice of those who want to join.
I don't have any known concerns with how money is being spent. I also agree that most will give to spread the gospel. They will also give if they have to to be blessed, keep the windows of Heaven open, keep the devourer rebuked or avoid a curse.
It's the teaching used to provoke the giving that concerns me.
Our priest is not after the order of Levi (give and you'll be blessed, don't and you won't), He's after the order of Melchizedek (blessed, victorious and sharing communion with Him before you give, not because you give).
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
He gave him a tenth of all.
What scripture do you use to tell people what to tithe on or when to tithe?
Do you use Deut 14 (the longest passage on tithing in the Bible)?
Deut. 14:22 “You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. 23 You shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the Lord your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the Lord your God blesses you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 Also you shall not neglect the Levite who is in your town, for he has no portion or inheritance among you.
28 “At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town. 29 The Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.
Even under the Law, the tithe came into the storehouse "every third year", the other 2 years it was to be eaten by the you and your family in a celebration of God's goodness. What scripture do you use to suggest it is never to be eaten, or that it must be brought in every year to the priests? Aren't we a kingdom of priests?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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6/5/17 7:41 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I think his wording would be your wording and the wording of many. |
No, I would not have worded it that way, but I'm in a totally different place than the leader of the COG.
I don't believe tithing is a New Testament mandate, but I have always given 10% of my income to the church. I currently don't have a personal income.
I've been influenced most by Christians who were frugal and generous. The ones who influenced me most just did what they thought was the right thing regardless of circumstances. |
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6/5/17 7:57 am
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