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| Quote: | | In the last few years they left public ministry and he has become addicted to alcohol. Is she to continue to submit and clean up the puke when he comes home drunk? |
Why do you have to go straight for those kinds of questions, Tom? Here we are talking about Submission 101, submitting to a reasonably nice. Sure, we've talked about dealing with a hothead, too. But here you go asking questions from Submission 650.
About the first question, I'll just share some thoughts. She would still be submissive if she waited until he woke up from his stupor, had to smell the vomit with a hangover, and then lovingly cleaned it up while he was sober-- if he asked her--so he could feel like a heal for asking her. Or he may just clean it up himself. If he fell alseep in his own vomit on the floor, she could let him sleep in it, let his shirt soak it up, and then when he is awake and sober, submissively help him clean it up-- if he asks.
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Is she to continue to submit to his using the car and staying out until 3:00AM, coming home drunk? |
He is a grown man. What is she going to do? I suppose she could hide the keys or something. I don't think being submissive means you don't say anything. A man's wife is usually the closest person to him. We all have to admonish and encourage one another. And one's wife or husband should point it out when someone is sinning. I've been saying a wife should do this with respect in a submissive manner.
Instead of asking her to call the cops on him when he is out drunk behind the wheel and she finds out about it, why don't you ask her to call you immediately so you can pray. You can call the cops without telling her, and then she doesn't have to struggle with whether that is being unsubmissive. I really can understand her position if she goes along with what he wants.
I can also understand your position that she should have called the police. Does submit to your husbands trump 'love thy neighbor' or even 'do unto others' or 'choose life.' Drunk driving is very dangerous.
I am thinking about Abigail. Nabal told his servants to tell David he wasn't going to give him any food and to insult him. I suspect he did not say to Abigail "Don't give David any food." Abigail realized that her husband's life and the lives of many others could be in danger because of this. So she snuck out with some food and gave it to David, and Nabal's life was spared, at least from David's sword. Was that unsubmissive? You might say it was. You might say it wasn't. She saved her husbands life, and you could say that was being a good helpmeet.
Most of the time, though, a wife is not putting her husband's life or anyone else's life in danger by submitting to her husband. Would you agree that wives should submit to their husbands under normal circumstances where submitting doesn't harm anyone or enable anyone in destructive or sinful behavior?
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Is she to continue to submit and allow him to spend the money she earns on alcohol and other stuff...leaving them without money for basic necessities? |
I don't think submission means you can't put up some kind of resistance to this sort of thing. Daniel had a submissive attitude toward the officials over him, but he didn't say, "Okay, just kill me" when Nebucadnezer wanted to wipe out the wise men.
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12/14/11 10:43 pm
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| Tom Sterbens... |
FloridaForever |
While some women MAY feel led to be long-suffering to such a husband as you describe, I don't believe any fair understanding of the word "submission" means "to follow blindly to destruction."
We all have the God-given right to survive and, hopefully, thrive.
A woman in a marriage with an abusive husband...should divorce him.
Marriage is NOT more important than our lives or our relationship with God.
Of course, not submitting to poor behavior does not necessarily mean that the only answer is divorce. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
12/15/11 7:19 am
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| Re: Tom Sterbens... |
PastorJackson |
| FloridaForever wrote: | While some women MAY feel led to be long-suffering to such a husband as you describe, I don't believe any fair understanding of the word "submission" means "to follow blindly to destruction."
We all have the God-given right to survive and, hopefully, thrive.
A woman in a marriage with an abusive husband...should divorce him.
Marriage is NOT more important than our lives or our relationship with God.
Of course, not submitting to poor behavior does not necessarily mean that the only answer is divorce. |
Please show me that in the bible. There is ONLY 2 reasons listed and abuse is not a reason, its not rite but it is not a reason. We as ministers need to know what the bible says and not make our own interpretations. Tell me should a woman who gets pregnant in that situation have a abortion because he is abusive? What other reason should there be a divorce, if he yells at her? Just curious.
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Posts: 4743
12/15/11 8:38 am
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| bonnie knox wrote: |
Rape is usually not perpetrated on someone because that person is sexually provocative. It usually is about domination.. |
It seems like it is always women who say that rape is not about sex; it is about domination. But I just don't buy it it. If lust were not a part of the equation and it were just about domination the man could just give the woman a wedgie or put her in a headlock. If a man has experienced sexual temptation, multiply that by a few times, and throw in some selfishness and a tendency toward violence, and you can have a rapist. I think the rape is just about domination is a bill of goods that feminists and other liberals have taught people like me and you so they can still have their porno, lust, and fornication, and reject the idea that it can lead to rape. Ted Bundy was heavily involved in pornography before he started raping and killing women.
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Last edited by Link on 12/15/11 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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12/15/11 12:57 pm
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| Re: Tom Sterbens... |
Link |
| FloridaForever wrote: | While some women MAY feel led to be long-suffering to such a husband as you describe, I don't believe any fair understanding of the word "submission" means "to follow blindly to destruction."
We all have the God-given right to survive and, hopefully, thrive.
A woman in a marriage with an abusive husband...should divorce him. |
Show us where Jesus said that.
Paul, relating a commandment from the Lord said, let not the wife depart from her husband, but if she departs, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.
If a woman's husband has some kind of psychotic episode and starts pointing a gun at her and the kids, I don't think anyone is going to despise her for getting the kids out of the house. Protecting people's lives is of extremely high value. If the husband comes out of it, he would probably appreciate her actions which prevented him from doing something bad.
I wonder if the 'but if she depart' part is in there partly because of unusual circumstances like this. I can definitely see how it is there for women who didn't obey the first command not to depart from their husbands just from a bad choice.
If a woman's husband is abusive, and she flees to save, she should follow the instruction to remain unmarried or be reconcised to her husband. You could argue that remain unmarried means if she gets a divorce, she should remain divorced. I don't even know if there would have been any paperwork for a woman who left her husband back then. For Jews, men could give women a writing of divorcement. The other way around wasn't covered under the Old Testament and was a real rarity. For Gentiles, I don't know, but I would assume the man would have to approve and she would have the option of shacking up.
Under our legal system, if a woman is going to remain single or be reconciled to her husband, and those are her options, why should she file for divorce rather than separate?
Her husband is still alive.
| Quote: |
Marriage is NOT more important than our lives or our relationship with God. |
But we need to do right by God in our married lives as a part of our relationship with God. Disobeying Christ is bad for our relationship with God.
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Of course, not submitting to poor behavior does not necessarily mean that the only answer is divorce. |
I think I understand what you mean, and I am glad you don't see divorce as a cure-all in such situations.
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12/15/11 1:09 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: |
Rape is usually not perpetrated on someone because that person is sexually provocative. It usually is about domination.. |
It seems like it is always women who say that rape is not about sex; it is about domination. But I just don't buy it it. If lust were not a part of the equation and it were just about domination the man could just give the woman a wedgie or put her in a headlock. If a man has experienced sexual temptation, multiply that by a few times, and throw in some selfishness and a tendency toward violence, and you can have a rapist. I think the rape is just about domination is a bill of goods that feminists and other liberals have taught people so they can still have their porno, lust, and fornication, and reject the idea that it can lead to rape. Ted Bundy was heavily involved in pornography before he started raping and killing women. |
Wow. I hope you're not trying to misrepresent me as someone who wants to still "have their porno, lust, and fornication, and reject the idea that it can lead to rape." Wow.
My point is that it is wrong to blame a rape victim for the rape because she was dressed in a way considered to be sexually provocative. |
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12/15/11 2:02 pm
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| Divorce is OK more often than we think... |
FloridaForever |
We are told not to kill.
Except, apparently, when it comes to war, executions, or self-defense.
We are told not to lie.
Except when it saves lives (see the midwives in Egypt).
Very simply, the "absolutes" of scripture are not literally absolute. There are exceptions.
ALL the law and the prophets hang on "love God" and "love your neighbor."
Period.
We should know BY THE SPIRIT, that it is the foulest bondage imaginable to tell a young lady who is beaten by a husband who threatens her and her children that she cannot divorce him...but if he happens to have a one-night stand, she's free to go.
What sort of rule makes us WISH and DESIRE for our spouse to commit adultery so we can be free?
Yes, under all NORMAL circumstances, ONLY sexual immorality is a cause for divorce. But there are abnormal situations...a man who refuses to support his family, a man who beats his wife, a woman who beats her husband, a woman who endangers the lives of her children, etc.
If we cannot discern this BY THE SPIRIT, then we know not what spirit we are of. Jesus say ONLY for fornication.
Paul expanded on it, advising that a woman whose unbelieving husband left her was FREE.
If you think that the Lord of grace is about chaining a 23-year-old young lady to a malignant marriage of violence, endangerment, suffering and heartbreak all because her husband doesn't have the decency to go commit adultery, well, think what you will. I would tell her to divorce him and move on..
Yes, she SHOULD have made a wiser decision upfront. But she didn't. So she has to suffer for the rest of her life because of it?
Even if one would hold that it was a SIN to divorce and remarry, well, that's a forgiveable sin.
Why can't she be happy just because her husband is a lout?
Yes, some people will take advantage of this and divorce for frivolous reasons. You know, LIKE THEY ALREADY DO.
The point is not to put even more burden upon them. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
12/15/11 2:07 pm
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| bonnie knox wrote: | | Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: |
Rape is usually not perpetrated on someone because that person is sexually provocative. It usually is about domination.. |
It seems like it is always women who say that rape is not about sex; it is about domination. But I just don't buy it it. If lust were not a part of the equation and it were just about domination the man could just give the woman a wedgie or put her in a headlock. If a man has experienced sexual temptation, multiply that by a few times, and throw in some selfishness and a tendency toward violence, and you can have a rapist. I think the rape is just about domination is a bill of goods that feminists and other liberals have taught people so they can still have their porno, lust, and fornication, and reject the idea that it can lead to rape. Ted Bundy was heavily involved in pornography before he started raping and killing women. |
Wow. I hope you're not trying to misrepresent me as someone who wants to still "have their porno, lust, and fornication, and reject the idea that it can lead to rape." Wow.
My point is that it is wrong to blame a rape victim for the rape because she was dressed in a way considered to be sexually provocative. |
Sorry, Bonny, I did not mean to imply that. I have reworded the previous post.
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12/15/11 2:08 pm
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Florida,
I believe the Spirit's teaching on the matter is in line with Christ's. The Spirit takes from what is Christ's and delivers it to the disciples.
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12/15/11 2:10 pm
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| Link... |
FloridaForever |
The Spirit DOES align with Jesus' teaching. But I'm speaking of EXCEPTIONS. The Bible cannot contain all the exceptions to every rule, etc. There is some indication, surely, that readers are to exercise commonsense, follow the Spirit, etc.
Jesus was not trying, I don't believe, to make an absolute statement where there were not exceptions for any abnormal thing. For instance, what if a woman is married to a man who kills children? That's not, technically speaking, adultery/fornication/sexual immorality.
But surely we don't think that the Holy Spirit would say, "Nope, you married him, you have to stick with him 'for better or worse' in this situation"???
That's what I'm trying to get across--the extremes or exceptions that can arise. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
12/15/11 5:07 pm
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Bonnie,
About a woman's mouth being the biggest problem in some marriages, here are a couple of proverbs
Proverbs 25:24
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife. (NIV)
And that's just one of them.
Can you honestly say you can't think of married couple that you've known for whom this is a problem?
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12/15/11 10:13 pm
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Tom Sterben's asked,
| Quote: |
So you are saying that her covenant with the church (and the suggested instruction to leave) takes precedence over the covenant of marriage (and the instructions of the husband for her to submit and remain)? |
A Christian woman's loyalty is to Christ over husband or church. She is to submit to her husband as unto the Lord, but there are other commands in scripture besides this one. The issue of church discipline is not just an issue of the authority of the local church. It is an issue of the authority of Christ, as we see in Matthew 18 ("there am I in the midst of you, " He said) and in I Corinthians 5 where it is done with the power of the Lord Jesus.
I had said it would make more sense for a woman to get out of the house if the church were not fellowshipping with her husband over a church discipline issue than if someone urged her just to do it by herself.
I'm not sure where I stand on wives separating from husbands in order to withdraw fellowship with the church. That is a tough one. It is also tough when you think about applying that to parents. Honor thy father and mother is a pretty important commandment, too.
I know a man in the house church movement who is regarded as an apostle in some circles. He is a very humble, kind, elderly man who teaches very specifically from the Bible, only teaching things he can really back up with scripture. He comes from a Baptist background but is theologically charismatic in that he believes in and has operated in certain gifts of the Spirit including tongues.
House churches of this variety tend to have a strong sense of community and function like a family-- like family you choose to hang out with. People know each other well. Some of the house churches take those church discipline passages and many of the other passages that more traditional (including Pentecostal) churches just ignore quite seriously.
One couple in one of the house churches he told me about. He said the husband was viewing porn and making his wife do things that weren't right. I don't know what things he was having her do. Finally, she sought help from some of the people in her church. They confronted the man and ended up withdrawing fellowship from him.
That made sense to me, depending on what he was doing and whether he would repent or not. But he also said the church advised the woman to move out with the kids. She did it. He said the man repented.
This could get messy if the man doesn't repent and lives basically as an unbeliever. What should his wife do?
Here are some relevant scriptures:
I Corinthians 5:1
1But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
2 Thessalonians 3:6-15: "For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such, we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
I am wondering about the man who is a drunkard. Is he still involved in church? What is his church doing about this? Can he still go there and fellowship? If he is a part of a church, have they stepped in to confront him?
Matthew 18 talks about a man having a chance to 'hear the church.' Apparently, there was to be a public confrontation if the man did not repent at the stage of two or three witnesses. It is funny that sometimes the world will take concepts that are in the Bible that churches ignore. They have 'interventions' now where if someone is a drunkard or into substance abuse, all of his friends and family gather together and all confront him about his problem.
If the man has backslidden and won't have anything to do with church, then his church may not be able to do anything. But if he goes to church, doesn't it make sense to have the whole church get on his case, after he is confronted properly by one, then two or three, than to put the burden of not being an 'enabler' on his wife, who is struggling with the issue of when to submit and when submission is enabling?
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12/15/11 10:28 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Link wrote: | Bonnie,
About a woman's mouth being the biggest problem in some marriages, here are a couple of proverbs
Proverbs 25:24
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife. (NIV)
And that's just one of them.
Can you honestly say you can't think of married couple that you've known for whom this is a problem? |
(I thought I was done with this thread, but since you addressed me personally, I will answer.)
I am very familiar with that verse. Some men I've met love to quote it.
You initially said the wife's mouth was one problem in a lot of marriages. Now you're asking me if I can't think of one marriage in which it is a problem.
I can't seem to get across that I'm not here to debate over whether querulous wives exist. I just don't think it's constructive to focus on symptoms rather than problems. Maybe she is evil-hearted, maybe she is disrespectful, maybe she doesn't feel validated, whatever. But just to focus on the "wife's mouth" seems so... so... Soddy-Daisy-ish: "Now we'll have a good time [at this Assembly] if you'll just be quiet and let me do the driving."  |
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Posts: 14803
12/15/11 10:37 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | But I just don't buy it it. If lust were not a part of the equation and it were just about domination the man could just give the woman a wedgie or put her in a headlock. |
Think it through. Which would humiliate someone more - being put in a headlock or being raped? There is intrinsic violence in forcing someone to do something against his or her will. When a rapist asserts power over a victim, he wants it to be humiliating.
Surely you're aware of how women have traditionally been treated in court when they have been raped. The defense has traditionally tried to shred her character or suggest that her behavior or appearance was somehow to blame. That is so degrading. |
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Posts: 14803
12/15/11 10:52 pm
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bonnie knox |
Having a Rick Perry moment, are you? 
| Link wrote: | Bonnie,
About a woman's mouth being the biggest problem in some marriages, here are a couple of proverbs
Proverbs 25:24
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife. (NIV)
And that's just one of them.
Can you honestly say you can't think of married couple that you've known for whom this is a problem? |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/15/11 11:58 pm
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| bonnie knox wrote: | Having a Rick Perry moment, are you?
| Link wrote: | Bonnie,
About a woman's mouth being the biggest problem in some marriages, here are a couple of proverbs
Proverbs 25:24
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife. (NIV)
And that's just one of them.
Can you honestly say you can't think of married couple that you've known for whom this is a problem? |
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I had intended to mention two and had them picked out, but I was in a hurry and only put one down.
I was thinking Perry might be in the running if he had said, "Did I say three departments? Sorry-- two departments."
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12/16/11 5:02 am
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