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p5harri |
I agree with Troy.
James Macdonald has some great point on this.
Basically God's will is not a dot on the ground you have to find, it's a pasture surrounded by a fence of biblical standards and you are free to move around in that pasture and remain in that fence.
There is no specific place you have to live, job you have to work, or girl you have to marry to stay in God's "perfect will".
Patrick |
Acts Enthusiast
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2/10/12 7:49 am
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| Re: Perfect-Permissive will of God? |
InspiredHillbilly |
So you either have to get the exact perfect Will of God in your life, or your just unsaved? You lose out with God? Cause that's the discussion here. I think some people don't understand what I mean by the "permissive will" of God.
So, if you are in ministry, and then have a couple of huge moral failures, that will keep you from being where you could have been in ministry... and now the consequences publicly keep you from ever returning to that position.... since you now can't get back to that Perfect Will of God for your life, you just lose out with God? There's not a permissive will of God so that you can still stay saved now that you've repented and come back to the Lord?
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/10/12 7:59 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
| p5harri wrote: | I agree with Troy.
James Macdonald has some great point on this.
Basically God's will is not a dot on the ground you have to find, it's a pasture surrounded by a fence of biblical standards and you are free to move around in that pasture and remain in that fence.
There is no specific place you have to live, job you have to work, or girl you have to marry to stay in God's "perfect will".
Patrick |
I believe the steps of a righteous man are led by the Lord. In my opinion, my footsteps are a very small piece of my life, but God says he gives direction to even them... meaning, even the small things. I thought he said he is even aware of the number of hairs on my head (not a big deal in my case), and if a sparrow falls.
Now, do I think he CONTROLS to that minute detail my life, nope... I have free will, but do I believe he has a perfect plan to that detail... absolutely.
And I believe that I have messed up and made enough of the wrong decisions (that by the way took me out of covenant and I was no longer saved), that when I finally was repentant, and came back to the Lord, that now the consequences are so large, I'll never be able to achieve that perfect plan (will) for my life. Now, I'll have to walk in plan B, the permissive will.
Now... can somebody help me with Scripture and Biblical example to show me that isn't true? I'm not arguing, I'm really needing some help here.
I'm gonna be honest... it beats me up day and night to know how I failed the Lord... very publicly while I was in ministry. I messed up royally, and I know the direction God had for me and the plans He had for my life.
I was backslid. I was in a lost condition. I had turned my back on God and His work for my life.
Not that I'm back where I need to be, repented, and trying to live for the Lord... there are consequences to my failure. I will never, ever be able to minister in the capacity I know I was supposed to, and will never ever be what God called me to be.
My failure was not in God's plan for my life. I took my life out of His hands and put it in my own. Now I'm handing Him my life back, but attached with consequences. The reality is, I blew it, and now though saved again... will never know what I could have known in ministry.
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/10/12 8:10 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Matt 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29 “And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 “The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31 “Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. |
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2/10/12 8:16 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Matt 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29 “And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 “The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31 “Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. |
I appreciate the scripture, but not sure how this applies to the discussion? Please elaborate in what you believe it's saying in light of my question? Neither son represents what I'm talking about... I'm talking about a son who said yes I'll go, actually went and worked... then left.... then repented and came back and starts working again.
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/10/12 8:25 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I believe God's will is to some extent flexible with regards to such things, Hillbilly. For instance Jonah ran from God's presence (and will) at first, but eventually obeyed. God was remarkably patient with Jonah through it all. At the end of the story God is still working on Jonah's attitude, to get him to see things the way God wants him to.
That said, regret is a real issue for anyone with a conscience. Even God said he regretted having made mankind in Gen 6, and chose a MAJOR plan B in that case. (It was not God but man who failed though).
Again I would say the will of God for any of us, no matter what our past, is to presently love and serve Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourself. If you feel you can never be in the same kind of ministry you once felt called to, that doesn't mean you can't be in whatever ministry God may have for you presently.
Hope this helps,
QW |
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2/10/12 8:28 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| InspiredHillbilly wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Matt 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29 “And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 “The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31 “Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. |
I appreciate the scripture, but not sure how this applies to the discussion? Please elaborate in what you believe it's saying in light of my question? Neither son represents what I'm talking about... I'm talking about a son who said yes I'll go, actually went and worked... then left.... then repented and came back and starts working again. |
I would say the principle would be the same--doing the will of God now, obeying him presently is the important thing. One either does God's will or one doesn't. If one repents after disobeying and does the Father's will, that is what is the most important thing. |
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2/10/12 8:31 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Again I would say the will of God for any of us, no matter what our past, is to presently love and serve Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourself. If you feel you can never be in the same kind of ministry you once felt called to, that doesn't mean you can't be in whatever ministry God may have for you presently. |
Thanks so much.. and I do believe there is ministry for me now, after moral failure, but of course not the same kind. So, what do we label that? Wouldn't that be His permissive will since it wasn't the original plan?
I know I'm a frustrating person to talk with, LOL. Because of the type of work I do "secularly" everything has to have a category, a label, a place to put it... and I have had so many people tell me that since I messed up, and can't be used as I was before, that I'm just completely out of the will of God now, and they almost make it sound like there's no hope, repentance or not.
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/10/12 9:11 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Like I said, I don't buy the whole 'permissive' will of God concept. I would say if you are obeying God now you are in His will. Everyone of us has failed God in one way or another, but that doesn't mean we can't obey His revealed will now, even if that will has changed somewhat from the original. God's original intention was to speak through Moses, but He still used Moses through Aaron to speak to Pharoah. That is what I mean when I say God's will is to some extent flexible. God is incredibly patient, resourceful, and flexible with us. He's far more interested in forming our character into His image than anything else ultimately. |
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2/10/12 9:31 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Like I said, I don't buy the whole 'permissive' will of God concept. I would say if you are obeying God now you are in His will. Everyone of us has failed God in one way or another, but that doesn't mean we can't obey His revealed will now, even if that will has changed somewhat from the original. God's original intention was to speak through Moses, but He still used Moses through Aaron to speak to Pharoah. That is what I mean when I say God's will is to some extent flexible. God is incredibly patient, resourceful, and flexible with us. He's far more interested in forming our character into His image than anything else ultimately. |
Great, great post.
I agree with others that generally speaking there is not a defined place to live, a defined girl to marry, a defined job to have, etc. We seek the Lord and make the best decisions we can based on His leading and the instruction of His Word. However, it's equally incorrect to say this is always the case. If God tells you to plant a church in another city, then you have been given a specific place to live and a specific job to do. And if you disobey that leading, you can probably still lead a fruitful life and please God. As Wyatt said above, His will is "to some extent flexible" and He is "incredibly patient, resourceful, and flexible with us." But you very well may miss out on the potential fullness of your calling and the rewards and opportunities God had for you in that city.
After a period of repentance and restoration you may even, by God's astounding, amazing grace, lead a life as fruitful as you would have following His original instruction. He could redeem the time and fully restore. He is well able. But I can't think of any way to describe the strong potential for lost opportunity created by disobedience in this case as anything other than "missing it." |
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2/11/12 10:19 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| InspiredHillbilly wrote: | Not that I'm back where I need to be, repented, and trying to live for the Lord... there are consequences to my failure. I will never, ever be able to minister in the capacity I know I was supposed to, and will never ever be what God called me to be.
My failure was not in God's plan for my life. I took my life out of His hands and put it in my own. Now I'm handing Him my life back, but attached with consequences. The reality is, I blew it, and now though saved again... will never know what I could have known in ministry. |
Friend, I don't believe this. There is nothing you have done or could do that is greater than the blood of Jesus. As Brother Wyatt intoned above, God is very, very able to get Himself past our failings and our limitations. I don't know the details of your failure and I have no desire to know. But I know it's as far from you now as the east is from the west, and cast into the sea of His forgetfulness.
God is able to redeem the time, to restore what you have lost, and to bless your heart of repentance with latter days that are better than the first. Pick up your head and look forward. I believe with all my heart that your best days are ahead of you. You need to wrap yourself in the Word until you see the same. |
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2/11/12 10:25 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: |
Great, great post.
I agree with others that generally speaking there is not a defined place to live, a defined girl to marry, a defined job to have, etc. |
I do believe we ought to seek the Lord in all those major life decisions most especially, and that God does have a best choice, a preference for us in all those situations.
I just as certainly believe that if we perhaps have blown it majorly in one of those areas and have missed God's perfect will (say, we weren't living for Him nor seeking His will when we should have been, and as a result at that time we missed God's perfect job, place of ministry, or even His first choice in a spouse for us) that God still hasn't given up on us and we can find what His perfect will is for us NOW, notwithstanding our past obstinance and ignorance.
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | If God tells you to plant a church in another city, then you have been given a specific place to live and a specific job to do. And if you disobey that leading, you can probably still lead a fruitful life and please God. |
I guess I'm not explaining my view very well. I do not believe anyone can please God as long as they are willfully disobeying Him. He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
What I mean by flexible is that, say, for instance, a young man feels called to preach, pursues the ministry full of faith in God's provision and protection, finds the wife he feels God has given him, gets married, and then after a while the wife decides she is not happy and ends up leaving him for another man whom she thinks will make her happy. Some would say God is through with that young man (or woman). I would not.
I would instead say that God's specifically revealed will in that case may have changed in light of the new developments. I would say the man would definitely have to take sufficient time to heal emotionally and spiritually from the pain of it all, but I would not say the man was somehow no longer called or that he has never really been called. I would say he simply has to seek God's leadership to find what his next step should be. If the marriage is beyond hope of restoration, he needs to just prayerfully move on and not let that tragedy destroy him. The young man may find that God's revealed will now is to pursue some other avenue of life and ministry than he had previously.
I definitely don't think we can just do whatever we may want and expect God to bless our efforts anyway. God blesses sacrifice and faithfulness. |
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Posts: 12817
2/11/12 1:09 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | Qualification prior to question: If we are to believe that the Old Testament provides covenantal/relational example between God and His people. You can reference everything from Rom 15:4, to 1 Cor 10, to Galatians (tutor) and beyond.
Dave - That being said - how would you apply the the story of Samson to your assertion? You know - call, anointing, conscious continual disobedience, subsequent and consequential imprisonment and death????
What do you think? |
Tom, I would my classify my post as more personal than doctrinal. I agree there are instances in the Bible where "conscious continual disobedience" sa you put it had long-lasting consequences, both with repentance (Samson, for example) and without (Eli and his sons.)
Certainly this is the case now. If a minister were to become a convicted sex offender, for example, that would certainly carry heavy consequences even in repentance.
But -- not knowing InspiredHillbilly's transgression, admittedly -- I feel comfortable in asserting, knowing the passion and conviction of his posts here, and the very high standard of righteousness to which he holds himself to -- that his sin most likely did not rise to a level of consistent, continual disobedience in the way that some examples above did.
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 2/11/12 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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2/11/12 7:12 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I guess I'm not explaining my view very well. I do not believe anyone can please God as long as they are willfully disobeying Him. He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. |
I should make a point of clarification here as well. When posting: "If God tells you to plant a church in another city, then you have been given a specific place to live and a specific job to do. And if you disobey that leading, you can probably still lead a fruitful life and please God." I intended to imply a place of repentance and forgiveness between the disobedience and subsequent use. I agree with the statement you have made above.
| Quote: | | What I mean by flexible is that, say, for instance, a young man feels called to preach, pursues the ministry full of faith in God's provision and protection, finds the wife he feels God has given him, gets married, and then after a while the wife decides she is not happy and ends up leaving him for another man whom she thinks will make her happy. Some would say God is through with that young man (or woman). I would not. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | I would instead say that God's specifically revealed will in that case may have changed in light of the new developments. I would say the man would definitely have to take sufficient time to heal emotionally and spiritually from the pain of it all, but I would not say the man was somehow no longer called or that he has never really been called. I would say he simply has to seek God's leadership to find what his next step should be. If the marriage is beyond hope of restoration, he needs to just prayerfully move on and not let that tragedy destroy him. The young man may find that God's revealed will now is to pursue some other avenue of life and ministry than he had previously.
I definitely don't think we can just do whatever we may want and expect God to bless our efforts anyway. God blesses sacrifice and faithfulness. |
Agreed and agreed again. |
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2/11/12 7:14 pm
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| What does the Word say? |
4golf |
| The best thing and the Greatest thing God gave me was a Love of the Word of God. Not just 774,000 plus words written in 66 books, But What the God gave me a Love of what He says! I believe man has the rendency to make God so hard to understand! Man wants to sycoanlize everything as man does eveything. I have come to one conclusion in my walk with God is you can't do God that way! The Best scripture that helps prove the point God truly forgives us from every thinh is 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ""ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS"". The Word of God says ""ALL"". Alot what Inspiredhillbilly is talking about and has been taught is what I call chain link salvation! You have all the links of your made of steel chain, except one! That one is made out of paper! If that paper link fells all the chain is lost! I don't believe that and Gods Word never taught that. Look at King david. He went over a year with out repenting his sin of murder and adultry, till God sent Nathan the Pophet to rebuke him. Did God forgive David, YES did God hold it over him the rest of his lief NO!!! That my friend is the true diffination of Unmaritive Favor of God! He God did nopt restore us fully 1 John 1:9 is a lie, and I know of no lies in those 66 Books! Just because God forgive us and restores us of our sins is there still a price for our sin Yes! God love us to much not to discipline us but loves us enough to when we truly repent to remember it no more. The king of think that you were taught Hillbilly would be not Totoally being forgiven. God does not sit in heaven just waiting to zap us when we mess up. Hope this helps. |
Bound By Beaulah
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2/12/12 9:03 am
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| Re: What does the Word say? |
InspiredHillbilly |
| 4golf wrote: | | The best thing and the Greatest thing God gave me was a Love of the Word of God. Not just 774,000 plus words written in 66 books, But What the God gave me a Love of what He says! I believe man has the rendency to make God so hard to understand! Man wants to sycoanlize everything as man does eveything. I have come to one conclusion in my walk with God is you can't do God that way! The Best scripture that helps prove the point God truly forgives us from every thinh is 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ""ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS"". The Word of God says ""ALL"". Alot what Inspiredhillbilly is talking about and has been taught is what I call chain link salvation! You have all the links of your made of steel chain, except one! That one is made out of paper! If that paper link fells all the chain is lost! I don't believe that and Gods Word never taught that. Look at King david. He went over a year with out repenting his sin of murder and adultry, till God sent Nathan the Pophet to rebuke him. Did God forgive David, YES did God hold it over him the rest of his lief NO!!! That my friend is the true diffination of Unmaritive Favor of God! He God did nopt restore us fully 1 John 1:9 is a lie, and I know of no lies in those 66 Books! Just because God forgive us and restores us of our sins is there still a price for our sin Yes! God love us to much not to discipline us but loves us enough to when we truly repent to remember it no more. The king of think that you were taught Hillbilly would be not Totoally being forgiven. God does not sit in heaven just waiting to zap us when we mess up. Hope this helps. |
To be honest, it doesn't. Because your talking about forgiveness... and I've already established that in the scenarios I'm mentioning, the hypothetical person, or even myself has already sought repentance and received, as Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us from all iniquity. But, as also has been stated by myself and other posters, the reality of living a witness 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, even when we fail.... is that sometimes we hurt that witness greatly and consequences come about.
As an earlier poster noted, it could be you've made life altering decisions, or even the grave transgression mentioned of the sex offender. No degree of repentance or forgiveness for that matter will change that God forgives us immediately, but does not provide a promise to remove consequences.
That being said, then is the life with the consequences to be called God's New Perfect Will for that repented prodigal, or is he now living in a permissive will, because the original plan and perfect will can no longer be achieved?
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/13/12 8:07 am
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| Gods Plan |
4golf |
| """"We"""" have changed Gods plan for our lives so many times they are not enough numbers!! Gods plan is none not sin, yet we sin all the time! We repent and reveive His forgiveness does that change that we still get took to the wood shed? No He still applys the Love of disipline to His children. Does the sin change Gods long term goal for all of His children to walk through the gates of heaven? No! If we have walked to the best of our ability the christian walk and share the Love of Jesus to the best of our ability, Jesus will be waiting with open arms and hear those Words; Welcome Home My child". Your race is done. |
Bound By Beaulah
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2/13/12 7:09 pm
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| Re: Gods Plan |
InspiredHillbilly |
| 4golf wrote: | | """"We"""" have changed Gods plan for our lives so many times they are not enough numbers!! Gods plan is none not sin, yet we sin all the time! We repent and reveive His forgiveness does that change that we still get took to the wood shed? No He still applys the Love of disipline to His children. Does the sin change Gods long term goal for all of His children to walk through the gates of heaven? No! If we have walked to the best of our ability the christian walk and share the Love of Jesus to the best of our ability, Jesus will be waiting with open arms and hear those Words; Welcome Home My child". Your race is done. |
But your discussion all has to do with salvation, forgiveness and His love... and that's not what my whole original question was... I totally understand the point your making, and I agree, but you are not addressing the question about Perfect Will. I'm assuming you don't believe there is a pinpoint, specific Perfect Will of God in a believers life?
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/14/12 7:41 am
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bradfreeman |
God's perfect will:
We all live naked in the world, tend to the plants, enjoy sex and painless childbirth...oh, and stay away from the knowledge of good and evil.
Everything else is Plan B.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
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2/14/12 7:46 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
| bradfreeman wrote: | God's perfect will:
We all live naked in the world, tend to the plants, enjoy sex and painless childbirth...oh, and stay away from the knowledge of good and evil.
Everything else is Plan B. |
I assumed everyone knew I meant in the New Covenant relationship...
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
2/14/12 7:58 am
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