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Glory Cloud, Gold Dust, Diamonds from Heaven All Caught on Camera (L)

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **5/10/16 1:57 am**

Or so says proponents of Bill Johnson's Bethel Church revival meetings. Here they are:

1. Begin at the 6:00 mark for a 20 second shot of the glory cloud:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPkOR4Lwj0

2. This brief clip shows gold dust falling from heaven:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAgjH9cJQ

3. This clip shows Bethel Church attenders at home, finding diamonds that fell from heaven in their house:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWQa7ijcIM

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **5/10/16 8:43 am**

Hmmm.

They say people at Azusa Street saw a cloud, fire, etc. Was there anything like that in COG history?
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Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1323 **5/10/16 9:08 am**

OTCP

Nothing in these videos that can be defended by scripture. Sorry it ain't there.

Or course there's the catch all phrase that will work for some people to support this foolishness: God can do what he wants to do.

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **5/10/16 10:34 am**

Some years ago I heard a lot about the gold dust.

I heard Bob Shaddels (sp) once. I know he was into the gold dust. He did not mention it while he was preaching. Something did show on his suit while he preached. Don't know what or how.

I was not impressed with the gold dust deal. However I was impressed when about 25 came forward for salvation during the altar invitation.

They say it was "signs and wonders". I admit it did make me wonder. I wondered where it came from and why.

As one posted there is no Biblical support for this.
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Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **5/10/16 5:11 pm**

I can understand and comprehend the visible presence of God's glory, but the gold dust and diamonds. I showed these to a local DJ and he says he uses the same special effects in a show.
Notice that these manifestations were happening under carefully controlled lighting conditions.

Like the whale said when he saw Jonah, "I ain't a gonna swaller that."
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You're barking up the wrong tree here otcp

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **5/10/16 6:57 pm**

Bill is a friend of mine. Yes he loves and models revival and the prophetic but he is a 4th generation AG preacher although he left the AG a few years ago (we discussed his reasons and I agreed with him and nearly took my church out of the AG as well but decided to stay for now) but he is a man of integrity and not given to wild hyperbole. If he said there was gold dust I believe it.

CoG Meeting With Glory Cloud

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3638 **5/10/16 6:58 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6385 **5/10/16 8:14 pm**

I have the answer OT, It is indeed a Cloud ... But its a cloud of smoke from one of the megawatt amplifiers burning out.... Cool

Re: You're barking up the wrong tree here otcp

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **5/11/16 2:58 am**

Hey spartanfan...

Friendly Face Posts: 115 **5/11/16 6:51 am**

Spartanfan, believe it or not, it was in Cleveland, Tennessee at our state campmeeting. I'm not sure of the exact year, but John Childers was our State Youth Director, and I was serving on the usher team that year. When we first saw the cloud/smoke, we were checking for a fire in the building. We were in the old tabernacle of the Church of God of Prophecy that has since been bull-dozed. There was also a "wind" that blew the long black drapes of material on the stage as a backdrop, towards and over the podium area of the stage. People saw many manifestations and there were numerous reports of healings and many other spiritual outpourings. It was truly the most spectacular thing I've ever seen.

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **5/11/16 8:10 am**

My wife and I were in a meeting with one of the greatest men of God I have ever known. He was speaking at a church near us.

I have been in meetings with him at other locations, including a meeting he conducted with the COG in Cleveland.

This precious brother seemed to be bothered that night. Have no idea why.
He laid hands on me and I fell under the power of the Spirit. He laid hands on my wife and she did not fall, so he attempted to push her down.

I still love the brother and great respect for him. But I do not like being pushed.

I had this happen to me at the church we attend a few months ago. I let my pastor know the man tried to push me down.

I know I am off the subject. But I do not like display. Holy Spirit needs no display. He can do as the Father wills, when He wills.
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Re: Hey spartanfan...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **5/11/16 8:14 am**

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **5/11/16 8:29 am**

Hey OTCP

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **5/11/16 2:11 pm**

While I do not care for Todd Bentley personally especially after having had him minister in my church in 2004 before all the mess. He was arrogant but he was anointed. That said, his rise to fame in such a short time surely highlights the admonition of Paul to Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:6 about not putting in novices as they will surely fail under the weight of ministry. I will not defend Todd as to his divorce or ministry as I do not know him or his heart at this point but others do. When a brother falls, what is the proper course of action? Have them repent, if possible to reconcile, if not be sat down and restored if possible. We serve the God of the Second Chance, last I heard. What Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner and a couple of others did was to do exactly that. Todd went to Morningstar and was ministered to by Rick at length. Bill JOhnson was apprised of the ongoing rehabilitation from time to time. After a couple of years Todd was given the opportunity to go back into ministry - from my understanding a better man, and humbled by his failure. You may disagree with his ministry - I'm sure you do but to disparage Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner from trying to help a fallen brother be restored in a Biblical fashion is a low blow. I post below Bill Johnson's letter to us about Todd Bentley. I am not ready to have him minister for me any time soon but I am not his judge and neither are you. Bill felt at the time of this writing that Todd was a changed man and recommended his ministry. I trust Bill Johnson but I had other issues with Todd.

Update from Bill Johnson on Todd Bentley

Family,

Several of the members of Revival Alliance flew to Lakeland, Florida, in 2008 both to observe and bless what God was doing through Todd Bentley. He was taking a lot of hits from highly respected leaders pertaining to that outpouring. We went there to lend our support and possibly add our strengths to the movement. We have all been on the receiving end of similar accusations against what God was doing in our ministries and churches. Each of us had developed a friendship and an informal partnership with Todd over the years. We have had great respect for the gift and anointing upon his life.

Before the Lakeland Revival, I had not only worked with Todd in ministry but also met with him, along with some of the core staff from Fresh Fire Ministry, to help him in the broken areas of his marriage. He was advised to cut back on ministry and get help. He did as was requested.

Fast forward: I was assured that there was great improvement in the Bentley marriage. Todd started to travel again with great breakthrough anointing. Lakeland actually started fairly soon after his return to travel. The outpouring happened exactly as had been prophesied. Interestingly, after some time in the revival, the same prophet who had prophesied the revival also warned of its collapse if Todd's personal issues weren't addressed properly.

Within days of Revival Alliance's time in Lakeland, Todd's marriage imploded. Both prophetic words were true. We were all grieved for the effect it would have on people who had been touched by Todd's ministry, especially the young people who looked to Todd as an example to follow. The consequences could be devastating. We grieved over the effect it would have on the Lakeland outpouring, itself, as well as outpourings in general. Our hearts go out to those who have given themselves to unselfishly serve the great work of God only to be let down by its leader. We grieved especially for Todd and his family, who would suffer from the choices that were made.

Immediate prayers were offered up for all of the above. Repentance would be needed. Deep repentance. The Revival Alliance team felt it best that I be the one to represent them because of my history with Todd and my involvement with the marriage issues.

My heart has always been for Todd the person, not the ministry. He's a friend. Ministry is supposed to come out of who we are, not what we can do through our spiritual gifts. In the time that has passed since the initial breakup, I have never met with Todd wanting to get him back in the pulpit. I've only met with him and prayed for him to see him healthy, knowing the rest will take care of itself.

Todd and I met fairly soon after things fell apart. During those hours together, I asked the appropriate questions you ask of a friend after failure. I then strongly encouraged him to take advantage of Rick Joyner's offer for him to move out to Morningstar Ministries in Charlotte, North Carolina. I knew that Rick was both capable and willing to work with him for restoration. Todd agreed.

Rick has the experience in restoration and the "community" setting that would be good for Todd. He is a trusted friend, one of the few I know with the experience needed to work in such a high profile case. (There is such a temptation in high profile cases to make decisions according to how they appear to others, and not directlywith the fallen person in mind. People who are moved by the opinions of others work to appease the media and/or the Christian critics instead of working to restore[/b]. Rick is more resistant to that temptation than anyone I know. It was and is a necessary trait if we want to see true restoration.)

Over the last three years, I have met with Todd on several occasions, as well as with Rick and Todd together. Rick and I have also talked privately, as he has worked hard to include me on critical issues. It's not been a lot. But they have both worked to keep me in touch. But it needs to be clear Rick and his team are the spear point of this process.

[b]Rick has worked with Todd over every accusation that has been brought up. He has mentioned to me on several occasions that Todd has responded very well to each situation. He has been extremely transparent and repentant over his issues. Necessary steps are always taken to make sure Todd is able to clean up his mess.

Rick called me a while back saying that he wanted to start to use Todd in ministry in a safe place. The safe place idea was for Todd's sake. The perfect setting for this is, of course, Morningstar Ministry. This is where Rick could observe and monitor Todd's progress, or, on the other hand, see areas that need attention. Rick has told me many times how encouraged he has been with Todd's personal transformation as well as some positive changes in ministry.

The next step has been to release Todd to minister with trusted friends who could benefit from and help in the process of Todd's restoration. This is in process right now, and the fruit has been good. I have now ministered with Todd in both settings—Morningstar and at a conference in Texas. It was good to see Todd in ministry again. He handled himself well and functioned under great anointing, and much more out of "rest." The fruit of the ministry was very good.

I have been involved from day one, although at quite a distance—both geographically and in time spent. Whenever I'm with Todd, I talk to him about his family. It's not that he needs reminding that that is an area that needs attention. It is in his heart. I just want to make sure that he is doing everything necessary to serve his family well in this very difficult situation. Todd has always responded well to my questions. I've been very happy with his sense of responsibility in that area.

One of the more important contacts in this process has been with Brent Borthwick. He is Shonnah's pastor. Brent is a trusted personal friend of mine and represents Todd's ex-wife and kids with compassion and wisdom. He has spent time with Todd since his move to Morningstar and has affirmed that from his point of view, Todd is doing well. He also told me he was pleased at how much at peace Todd seemed to be. Brent's perspective is important to me, for obvious reasons. He was also able to verify that Todd has taken care of Shonnah and the kids financially in an honorable way and continues to do so.

I am pleased with Todd's progress as a person, and now as a minister of the gospel. He is more at peace with himself than any time I've known him. Most of all, I am thrilled with the job Rick and the Morningstar team have done in serving Todd and trust Rick's perspective. Todd needed a great leader to stand up with him and for him, but he also needed to fit into a community of believers that would be honest and confronting when needed. This has been provided for him.

How long should it take for someone who has fallen to be restored to ministry? I wish I knew. I had a more absolute answer to that question before I had much experience. After many years now of working with broken people, I no longer know have a set time in mind. Every situation is different. The advice I've heard has ranged from "he should never be in ministry again" to "immediately—once forgiven a person should get back to what they're called to do." I don't like either of those answers.

Some have called for extreme punishment. It's been said, "We must make an example out of Todd." But if we're honest, punishment isn't really for the person who sinned. It is really to make the punisher feel better about the situation for which they have no control. As those who work with broken people we have responsibility for Todd and his family but also for the impact on the body of Christ. Whatever we do, it must be redemptive in nature for all of the above.

I don't want to do anything that will cause young people to think they can intentionally sin, say they're sorry, and go about life as though nothing happened. That is so far from reality. Sin has consequences that must not be ignored. (I don't say this to imply that Todd has taken his sin or situation flippantly. I don't believe that is true. It is just a possible message I don't want to convey when we release a person back into ministry.) On the other hand, I also don't want to miss the chance to demonstrate what the grace of God looks like. There are so many that are in Todd's position that need to know that God forgives and restores. People need permission to truly live as though they are forgiven. That is the greater story.

In conclusion, I recommend Todd to you, believing that you will be blessed and encouraged by his ministry. But perhaps even more important is the fact that Todd will be a reminder to us that it is possible to stand after such a great fall. We all live by grace, and only by grace. We desperately need examples of those who have walked in integrity all of their lives. But when there is sin, we need examples of restoration to bring hope to the broken people, many of whom are in our congregations. God will use Todd to be a message of restoration.

Blessings!!

Bill Johnson

Bethel Church

Redding, California 96003

Re: Hey OTCP

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **5/11/16 10:28 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5923 **5/12/16 8:50 pm**

I haven't watched the video. But I could handle reports of a "glory cloud" because I have at least heard of that or something similar from reputable people. However, I have a real problem with gold dust and finding diamonds. It seems to me that both would distract from the true presence of the Lord.

Nor do I see gold dust or diamonds in the list in Mark 16 that says, "These signs shall follow them that believe..."
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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **5/14/16 12:47 am**

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **5/14/16 1:09 pm**

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **5/14/16 7:47 pm**

In 1748 a Scottish philospher

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **5/14/16 7:47 pm**

by the name of David Hume wrote a famous essay called the Critique of Miracles. Hume (in the midst of the Age of Enlightenment/Reason) wrote that miracles COULD NOT happen because of 2 reasons. 1) A miracle would be a violation of the laws of "nature" which are unchangeable 2) reports of miracles have only occurred in the presence of uneducated barbarous people whose lack of understanding made them susceptible to attributing explainable events as miracles.

Of course his treatise is fatally flawed. 1) If there is a God, then He has the right much less the ability to change or set aside temporarily His own laws that govern the universe. After all, one definition of a miracle would be an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs beyond the norm of nature. In other words, God stepped into this world and superseded His natural law and did something unusual to the norm.

Hume's other tenet is also spurious as even uneducated, barbarous men can see that someone walking on water for example is unexplainable by any man of this world, educated or not.

My point is, the Bible is as you already agree, a book of miracles. If you take the miraculous out the Word, there is no God. None that I would be interested in anyway. Just because there was no manna ever before recorded did not mean God couldn't make some appear every day if He wanted to. Did He do it again after 40 years? No, not that I know of. COuld He? Absolutely. THere was no record of men and women speaking in Tongues before the day of Pentecost. It was a miracle that you will surely preach on tomorrow, I hope. Did He continue it? He is in my life and church and I hope all of ours. I am not a big fan of gold dust, diamonds et al but if He wants to bring them as signs and wonders to an unbelieving world then I say, BRING EM ON!

Your skepticism on some of these things is beginning to sound like Hume. You're not from Scotland are you?