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Is "Centralized Government" mandated by Scripture?

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **3/8/13 8:29 am**

This post comes as the result of a thought-provoking one from Bro Bob where he shares a quote from the COG General Assembly Minutes. Are you in agreement that the Bible mandates a centralized form of government?

FROM THE "MINUTES":
"Believing a centralized form of government to be the Biblical
(Acts 15:13-29) standard for our churches, the Church of God (Cleve-
land, Tennessee, U.S.A.) early adopted such a form of government
and has consistently practiced a centralized form of government (1994).

Doyle
writedoyle@yahoo.com
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

No...

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **3/8/13 9:27 am**

I do not believe it is a mandate. I Do see where the early COG thought it was and that does not bother me. If there was a true centralized government for the early church it is not well explained. Only the Jerusalem church seems to be centralized and communal. Some have speculated this was an influence of Qumran or other fringe elements within Jewish spirituality of the time.
_________________
Pax,

Ray

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **3/8/13 10:38 am**

You asking me???????

Laughing

It is a departure from Spurling's original conviction.

imho
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **3/8/13 10:49 am**

It is definitely not mandated. It is mandated in the same way that some say titheing is mandated. Rolling Eyes

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 **3/8/13 11:14 am**

Whether it is mandated or not can be honestly disputed. Even under the central form from the text, it is apparent that the burden placed upon those outside of Jerusalem was light by stated intent of the apostles who had that authority. Be reminded that it was unto them Christ spake when he said, "Whatsoever ye bind on earth I will bind in Heaven..." This is literally the authority to establish rule, precedence, and doctrine. We are clearly told, "It seemed good to them..." This means they held what we would call a general council and it was discussed and decided upon. THIS was apostolic authority. Apostolic authority does not exist today, but the method of discussion amongst brethren, and decision by a body of believers remains.

It is my admonition to anyone who will listen, RUN from modern day Simon the (ex-) sorcerers who merchandise in access to the Almighty. We have no apostles. Our pastors are not apostles. They do not have apostolic authority. They do not name their own apostles as if they were a modern day Christ. Do not worship any man. Even when the real apostles were worshiped by men, they tore their clothing and rebuked them saying, "We are men just like you." For this the mobs turned on them and stoned them, and left them for dead.

It would not be long until offerings would be taken at the outposts and sent to the saints at Jerusalem. This was due to their persecution and the failure of the system whereby they had all (their own) things common.

What cannot be disputed, is that when you make a vow to a brother or a group of brethren, you keep it.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **3/8/13 1:48 pm**

Bro Bob stated:

"THIS was apostolic authority. Apostolic authority does not exist today, but the method of discussion amongst brethren, and decision by a body of believers remains.

It is my admonition to anyone who will listen, RUN from modern day Simon the (ex-) sorcerers who merchandise in access to the Almighty. We have no apostles. Our pastors are not apostles. They do not have apostolic authority. They do not name their own apostles as if they were a modern day Christ. Do not worship any man. Even when the real apostles were worshiped by men, they tore their clothing and rebuked them saying, "We are men just like you."

Went to a large COG mega-church recently. The pastor made the statement that his team included all of the five fold ministry gifts including apostle. This church does have a campus away from the main campus. The main campus team sent the pastor to the sattelite location and administrate and rule the sattelite location. Apparently this COG does believe there are modern day apostles.

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **3/8/13 2:06 pm**

Yes, it is the pattern of scripture

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **3/8/13 2:07 pm**

The problem is NOT centralized government. It is how we have designed and executed centralized government.

In those days before phones and the internet, Paul might as well have been in China preaching the gospel...yet they took the matter back to Jerusalem for discussion.

The point is that on doctrinal issues or matters of substance, Jerusalem (at that time) was the epi-center of apostolic authority. Today, with denominations, the leadership of denominations (even if it is broad as in the whole of Ordained Bishops) is, for all practical purposes, this "apostolic authority."

The very early Church of God very strongly believed in allowing each person to have freedom of conscience in their understanding of scripture. After all, Spurling and others had suffered for having a different opinion about things than their (Baptist) denomination.

Also, the early Church of God took great care that the MINUTES not be elevated to a place of law. The Minutes were only a RECORD of the FINDINGS of Church of God ministers regarding this or that doctrinal or governmental issue. To them, only the BIBLE could serve as our true law book. We might extrapolate from it, but we wanted our ministers to still be free to work in good conscience, even if they had a somewhat different view of a doctrine than the Minutes reflected.

Of course, as time went on, the Minutes did congeal, to a degree, into our "lawbook." It is hoped that it accurately reflects scripture, but it now matters much more whether you have dotted your i's and crossed your t's according to the Minutes.

The early Church of God spent a considerable amount of effort on trying to find God's "perfect government." They felt if they could only find out just what God wanted, all the money and other issues would be fine.

Centralized government should be strong enough to matter...but not strong enough to prevent someone from truly following the Spirit or reason on a matter of doctrine or substance.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/8/13 2:07 pm**

Reading apostolic letters in the New Testament like 2 Corinthians, where the apostle pleads with the people to live in a way that pleases God, it appears that the cult-like dictator understanding of apostolic authority assumed by so many in our day is simply not reflective of the type of authority originally understood by the early apostles.

2 Cor. 1:24 Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

1 Peter 5:1Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

(Not saying anyone in this thread is necessarily implying such, just making an observation about the subject).

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/8/13 4:26 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3944 **3/8/13 7:24 pm**

Anybody got Bible for a pastor declaring himself to be an apostle, with authority to appoint other men as apostles (doesn't say if they too have that power), and then choosing one of them as the person to whom he is accountable?

I have some Facebook for it. Can't find scripture to support it.

New Member Posts: 24 **3/8/13 8:15 pm**

Re: Is "Centralized Government" mandated by Script

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **3/8/13 11:00 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/9/13 12:50 am**

One of the things that probably played into the attitude regarding this issue for the early CoG was the belief that they were THE Church of God that was being restored in the last days.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **3/9/13 8:03 am**

Quiet Wyatt wrote:

"One of the things that probably played into the attitude regarding this issue for the early CoG was the belief that they were THE Church of God that was being restored in the last days.

Somewhat like some of THE Church of Christ in my area. We have come a long way since thinking we were THE CHURCH OF GOD.

I believe we are THE Church of God...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **3/9/13 9:10 am**

I don't think that means others aren't going to heaven.

I don't think that means others aren't saved.

I DO think it means that the Church of God was indeed the restoration of the early Church. I also believe that the Pentecostal events that took place independently elsewhere (at least we assume independently) would fit into this restoration notion.

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 **3/9/13 10:10 am**

Re: I believe we are THE Church of God...

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/9/13 1:22 pm**

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/9/13 1:25 pm**

There are apostles today, there always have been apostles since Jesus ascended into heaven. They just aren't the ones running around giving themselves the title and trying to use it to command respect and authority over other people.

Every time Jesus sends someone to a group of people who haven't heard His name or the good news, they are an apostle to those people, they are sent by Jesus to them.

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/9/13 1:43 pm**

We only read of one time in Scripture where a church sent representatives to Jerusalem, and the issue was of extreme importance, it wasn't just details on how to conduct the daily business of the local church.

When Paul established churches they appointed elders in all the churches and it was the elders who governed the daily affairs of the church (not one man called "the pastor" or referral to a regional apostle).

Even the apostle Peter did not lord authority over the local churches in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. Instead he exhorted the elders among them as a fellow elder, a brother on the same level with them, and instructed them not to lord authority over the people but to serve as examples to the flock.

The idea of centralized government is a worldly system of exercising control over masses of people so that you can harness and use the capital of their energy, work and resources for your own purposes. This is why even in the story of Abraham rescuing Lot that the king of Sodom said to Abraham, "Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself". The king of Sodom knew what he had in the people, human capital to rebuild what he had lost when he was defeated by the other kings.

However, in Christ, each one us is to live under the direct authority of God, being led by the Holy Spirit individually and walking in the Spirit in our daily lives. Jesus was very clear in the gospels and it was reiterated in the Epistles that brothers in Christ are not to lord authority over one another in the manner that the world does. In contrast to the example set by the world, the greatest among US is to be the servant of all.

This precludes centralized government and the pastor ruling the church as well. The presbyterian, or elder model, is probably more in keeping with the intent and teaching of Scripture.