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 Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
theedmister |
| p5harri wrote: | | theedmister wrote: | | p5harri wrote: | I'm attending Liberty University finishing my B.S. and this semester I'm taking Theology 201.
It's been a great learning so far. However this week I have to complete an essay on Spiritual gifts and specifically on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
One of the specific questions I must answer is :Is speaking in tongues still valid today?
Should be an interesting critique for me I'm sure.
Didn't want this post to turn into a hard or serious discussion, just thought my Pentecostal background will make this essay a little interesting.
Patrick |
Might be a strange question but I was wondering why you would be attending Liberty University which seems clearly to be Baptist and then write this essay. What is the benefit. If they teach against or don't believe they you believe why not attend where they do believe the way you believe?
What are you trying to achieve? An honest inquiry. |
Probably because the Biblical education at Liberty is as academically sound as any other school I could attend and complete my degree online.
The essay questions and the parameters I have to answer it in were dictated by the professor, I was not given a lot of latitude into what I could or could no say.
In fact, the instructor limited the answer to expounding on what "perfect" means in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
I actually finished the essay, nothing earth shattering, just one paragraph to answer the question about tongues. Had a 800 word limit and that was to answer 8 questions, the one on tongues being the last one.
Patrick |
Ok, makes sense. I didn't see where you were taking this online. I can see a lot of benefits. I understand a lot more. Thanks for responding. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 231
6/16/11 8:54 pm
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p5harri |
Just an additional encouraging note.
One of the additional requirements is that we have to post our essays to the class Discussion Board, for their comments.
I have read the essays of 2 of the other students, they both say they believe that speaking in tongues is a valid experience today.
Thanks
Patrick
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We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1702
6/16/11 11:14 pm
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| Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
Link |
| p5harri wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | Scooter wrote: | | p5harri wrote: |
In fact, the instructor limited the answer to expounding on what "perfect" means in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
Patrick |
Response: I've always looked at that as Peter's "new earth" or God's completed plan for us.
How did you explain it? |
I too look forward to Patrick's answer. Personally I have always viewed that as referring to the return of Jesus for the church, and by extension glorification -- our bodily resurrection/transformation like unto His glorious body at His appearing. |
Here's my answer:
* Please note I was limited by the word count as to how much I could write. This was the last of eight seperate questions on Pneumatology. I tried my best to write from the head and heart.
In short I agree with both Poimen and Scooter.
In understanding 1 Corinthians 13, the word “perfect” in verse 10 has come to mean different things to different people. Some have interpreted the word “perfect” to represent Jesus or the canon of scripture. In research, I could find no clear consensus from Biblical scholars as to the exact object and meaning of “perfect.” However, when looking to the Greek lexicon it simply means, “Brought to its end or finished wanting nothing necessary to completeness.” There is no gender assigned to teleios, this would seem to leave out Jesus as the meaning. When looking at the argument for it representing the canon of scripture, the Corinthians’ in the context of this statement would not have thought of “Perfect” being the canon of scripture. In addition, knowledge has not faded away; scholars understand more about scripture as they seek to understand the context of the original writing of the Bible. Therefore, “perfect” can be best understood from verse 12. Perfection will not come until I see Jesus face to face.
Thanks
Patrick |
There was something in the B-Greek discussion list archives about this, but not much.
I asked a retired Greek prof (who believes in the gifts) about this. He used to chair a department and even worked for a Harvard center for something or other before.
Anyway, from talking to him and others, it would see that 'the perfect' is in contrast to 'that which is in part' and refers back to it grammatically. I don't know Greek so I can't explain it that well.
We know in part and we prophesy in part. The perfect that comes will replace the partial. Some might argue that knowledge and prophecy will cease. I suspect that knowledge and prophecy __in part__ will cease and be replaced with complete prophecy and complete knowledge. I suppose that is the argument that some use to say it refers to the scritpures. But that doesn't make sense and I will explain why.
Paul uses the analogy of his own childhood to explain the condition after the coming of the perfect. When Paul wrote the letter, he was like a child. His speech, knowledge, and understanding were childish in comparison to what it will be like after the perfect comes.
So when Paul wrote I Corinthians and the letters of scripture that preceded it, his knowledge was childish by comparison with what would come after. The timing here is clear because Paul explains 'now I know in part' (emphasis mine).
Those who argue that we have complete knowledge because we have the scriptures and that therefore prophecy is done away with miss the argument Paul is making. How can we have complete perfect knowledge if our knowledge comes from the writings of someone who has incomplete understanding? Presumably all the apostles thought and understood as a child by comparison to their understanding after the coming of the perfect.
Martin Lloyd Jones explained this in Prove All Things as follows:
What the apostle is, of course, dealing with in I Corinthians 13 is the contrast between the highest and the best that the Christian can ever know in this world and in this life and what he will know in the glory everlasting. The ‘now’ and the ‘then’ are not the time before and after the Scriptures were given, because that, as I have said, puts us in a position entirely superior to the apostles and prophets who are the foundation of the church and on whose very work we have to rely. It is inconsistent and contradictory—indeed there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense.
Another thing to note is that Paul says that then he shall know as he is known. Paul will experience the coming of the perfect and it will effect his knowledge. Paul did not experience the completion of the New Testament canon, but he will experience the resurrection at the return of Christ. I John says that we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. The mysteries and knowledge of God are hidden in Christ. What will seeing Christ at the resurrection do to our knowledge and prophecy?
Another problem with reading 'the canon' into the Bible is that it is just to anachronistic. I believe in the Bible, but we just can't read a Protestant Reformation mentality into the words of the apostles. Saying the passage is referring to the completed canon is anachronistic and it's creating a prooftext without the support of the context.
Another thing to note is the literary approach Paul is using in the epistle. Chapter 1 tells us a lot of things he will talk about in the epistle. He has in mind his message and he mentions some of the central themes early on and weaves them throughout the epistle. The early part of the chapter talks about spiritual gifts and the return of Christ. We see mention of spiritual gifts in chapter 1. Paul spends a couple of chapters on that. He talks about the return of Christ, a topic he deals with in chapter 15 in connection with the resurrection. He mentions the theme of wisdom and being haughty over knowledge, themes seen later in the epistle. He talks about divisions, something he addresses in the opening chapters and again in chapter 11. Most of the themes are touched upon in some way early on. Paul knew what he wanted to say.
Were there is something there in that first chapter that gives us some understanding of Paul's time frame on how long we are to exercise spiritual gifts.
I Corinthians 1
7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Notice this epistle is written to all believers, not just Corinthians. It is intended for the church. And it doesn't say 'that ye come behind in no spiritual gift for the next few decades' or 'that ye come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the completion of the New Testament canon'. There is no hint here that the gifts will cease before Jesus comes back.
I wonder if this and I Corinthians 13 might have been what that Christian who debated a Montanist that Eusebius quotes was referring to when he said that the apostle taught that the gift of prophecy would remain until our Lord returned.
If we look at I Corinthians 13 again and examine the argument, then look at the things Paul will talk about later, there is a parallel.
prophecy --->prophecy, chapter 14
tongues --->prophecy, chapter 14
the coming of the perfect --->the resurrection of the believer at the coming of Christ, chapter 15
I'm not saying 'the perfect' refers to this grammatically, but rather that is the time when the perfect will come, either that or at the time of delivering up the kingdom to God which is also mentioned in chapter 15.
Btw, for those with a futurist interpretation, it is foolish to argue that prophecy and miracles have ceased, and then say that the Two Witnesses get here and prophecy and shut up the heavens. Revelation also mentions the blood of prophets in Babylon. Some pre-trib cessationists will argue that prophecy ceases and restarts after the church leaves, but that sure doesn't make any sense. If prophecy were done away with, why would it revive during the tribulation? I Corinthians 13 does not say anything about the gift of prophecy dying and reviving.
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Posts: 11849
6/16/11 11:40 pm
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| Completely relevant |
doyle |
Anything God has done and is doing, is completely relevant.
In the New Testament, Speaking In Tongues was not only an inward expression of worship but a powerful external one as well.
"We HEARD THEM speak with Tongues..."
"Tongues is a sign to the unbeliever.
However, the over emphasis of Tongues instead of Christ, is not relevant and never has been. We are Christians first, and a people who Speak In Tongues after that. No experience or phenomenon, regardless how joyous or ecstatic, is to precede or overshadow our commitment and dedication to Christ.
In years past, it seemed some people were Pentecostals who also believed in Jesus when in fact, we are Christians who believe the power of the Holy Spirit brought Tongues into the Upper Room - and that it is a valid experience today.
Today, the proverbial pendulum has swung and many so-called Pentecostal churches are at the point to where they seldom if ever hear anyone Speak In Tongues. Sometimes it seems we're almost desperate to blend into the religious background to be like everyone else.
If someone has received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, they are never the same and are not like other religious people. They are empowered in a special way by the Holy Spirit.
Doyle
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Posts: 6957
6/17/11 9:45 am
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| I'm highly encouraged |
p5harri |
Well, so far, we are up to 7 essays posted in my Theology class and not one of the students has said that tongues has ceased. They all said that they believe speaking in tongues is a valid experience for the believer today.
I'm highly encouraged.....
Patrick
p.s. This is a highly Baptist university.
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We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1702
6/18/11 3:30 am
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