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 Church Property Ownership |
Change Agent |
I hear some say that the COG already allows churches to affiliate without owning the church property. These churches have COG ministers, pay TOT, but continue to own property. These churches may also give to COG missions.
My questions are:
1. Is this true?
2. Why is church affilation being voted on at the GA if this is already being allowed?
3. Does the vote at the GA on church affilation matter one way or the other?
4. Does this situtation show that the COG leadership in Cleveland will make decisions and hope the voters at the GA will ratify or will Cleveland continue to do what they want regardless of the vote at the GA?
BTW, I am for church affiliation. I also think all property should be given back to local control if they allow some churches to own property. Why go to the GA and vote if it doesn't matter? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
3/11/12 6:52 pm
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Cojak |
If it is happening, it is called EXCEPTIONS, remember there are exceptions to every rule!!!
But God Bless 'em if it is happening already! 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
3/11/12 9:34 pm
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Change Agent |
Are we going to be a church that is governed by exceptions? Speak up if you can either confirm or deny that "church affiliation" is already happening. Here on Acts it doesn't even need to be known beyond a reasonable doubt.  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
3/12/12 10:05 am
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Clint Wills |
I remember hearing the "it isn't fair" argument. I am fine with associated church. What does it hurt me if a church doesn't pay TOT or isn't technically a COG church, but has a COG pastor?
I think a lot of people don't want to give the benefits of the COG without forcing someone to pay the price of the COG. I'm pretty sure there is a parable that outlines this fairly precisely. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
3/12/12 10:17 am
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Bro Bob |
I think when the C of 18 and the IEC decide to blatantly disregard the express will of the General Assembly, they call it a "bold new partnership."
Unless it has changed since my 2004 copy, The Minutes are emphatic and unmovable that all property at the local, state, and national levels SHALL be held in trust in Cleveland.
I do know of exceptions.
I am not opposed to keeping the policy or doing away with it. There are merits to either view.
I am opposed to ignoring it. It makes liars of us. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/12/12 10:22 am
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georgiapath |
| Change Agent wrote: | | Are we going to be a church that is governed by exceptions? Speak up if you can either confirm or deny that "church affiliation" is already happening. Here on Acts it doesn't even need to be known beyond a reasonable doubt. |
That's right, we actually prefer that it be a rumor. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7604
3/12/12 12:03 pm
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| Since the they own it... |
Jamie Noel |
| Bro Bob wrote: | I think when the C of 18 and the IEC decide to blatantly disregard the express will of the General Assembly, they call it a "bold new partnership."
Unless it has changed since my 2004 copy, The Minutes are emphatic and unmovable that all property at the local, state, and national levels SHALL be held in trust in Cleveland.
I do know of exceptions.
I am not opposed to keeping the policy or doing away with it. There are merits to either view.
I am opposed to ignoring it. It makes liars of us. |
It's interesting what you just wrote. I have an older brother that pastors within the COG. In trying to refinance the church, it was discovered that the COG does not own the building, but instead, the state office has it deeded to them. That makes the state office the landlord, right?
Every landlord is responsible for the upkeep of the property, yet, the local church has to replace roofs, HVAC systems, parking lots, etc. The COG owns his church but will not assist in replacing these items needed to continue to function. Sounds like a double standard to me as an outsider. I want to own your "house" but you have to keep it fixed up. As a return, you pay me a "fee" to remain a part of my club. Aren't any of you guys willing to take of the COG glasses and see this? I really don't mean any disrespect. I am not trying to argue. But can't anyone see why they don't want to sign over ownership?
My brother is working his back end off to restore this church. At a time where he should be thinking about getting ready for retirement, he has taking a reduction in church size, pay, and status for the sake of knowing this is where he is supposed to be. I know there is nothing to worry about when you go where God has called you. Ultimately, our trust is in the Lord. But this is a fellowship, right? A brotherhood. A family. Why does it seem to leave some of its members to hang out to dry?
Respectfully submitted...
_________________
Stay Positive! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1138
3/12/12 1:10 pm
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| Exceptions |
Change Agent |
Bro Bob stated:
"I do know of exceptions."
Would you mind sharing the type of exceptions you know about? The one that I hear about is a very large COG.
These exceptions show that the leadership in Cleveland does not run by the minutes and should give all churches back their property. Be sure to vote yes on "church affiliation" at the GA to cover their ______ in Cleveland.
Is the GA ruling or is the "Exceptions" ruling? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
3/12/12 2:45 pm
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2ndgeneration |
Churches being deeded to the local body is not anything new. There are many of our older churches that have never been on the Church of God deed. I pastored a church that was organized in 1919 and it is still deeded to the local church body.
As it relates to the fellowship and the landlord taking care of the local property, I know that in our state the AB has assisted many congregations with their mortgage payments (five at the present time) and is presently helping a local church with replacing a roof and other needed repairs to the tune of over$28,000. Other churches are helping in this project for the local church.
There may some things wrong in our movement (as it is with every movement) but there are many things right with it too. There is not a perfect scenario inside the movement, in another denomination, or outside completely. I sure with there was but it's just not so. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1338
3/12/12 2:45 pm
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Cojak |
It is my understanding that the Nealsville COG in a southern state has always been locally owned.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
3/12/12 3:54 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Isn't it possible for a group of people to purchase a building and rent it to the church? Isn't that a way to get around the deed thing? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
3/12/12 3:58 pm
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chainrattler |
The International Headquarters should not be in the real estate business, which is exactly what they are in by default if they hold the deeds to all COG property.
If they are going to own the property, then Jamie is right, they should pay for the upkeep.
It is disingenuous for the national office to own the property, demand unforgivable tithe payments from the church at the expense of its operating expenses, and then on top of that expect the local church to pay for the upkeep and repair of a building they don't own but are considered responsible for.
There is only one unpardonable sin in Scripture, not 1. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and 2. Being behind on church tithe payments.
No pastor should have to enter into a new place of ministry with an instant, unforgivable debt to the denomination hanging over his head. It is not a wise way to treat your employees, especially when most of them have to pay for the privilege of working for you by having a second job.
Do these people in Cleveland even realize how closely their practices paralell the people Jesus rebuked in Mark 7:11?
Maybe part of the reason the Church of God has remained small in the United States is because 1. People are more educated and sophisticated in 2012 than they were in the early 1900s. 2. People expect to have some ownership of anything they are putting their money into, not just ownership of the liabilities. 3. People expect to have a voice in the decision making process of any organization they are a part of. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
3/12/12 4:43 pm
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| Re: Church Property Ownership |
Dan Eason |
| Change Agent wrote: | I hear some say that the COG already allows churches to affiliate without owning the church property. These churches have COG ministers, pay TOT, but continue to own property. These churches may also give to COG missions.
My questions are:
1. Is this true?
2. Why is church affilation being voted on at the GA if this is already being allowed?
3. Does the vote at the GA on church affilation matter one way or the other?
4. Does this situtation show that the COG leadership in Cleveland will make decisions and hope the voters at the GA will ratify or will Cleveland continue to do what they want regardless of the vote at the GA?
BTW, I am for church affiliation. I also think all property should be given back to local control if they allow some churches to own property. Why go to the GA and vote if it doesn't matter? |
1. No, it is not allowed. Are there churches who have found a way to ignore the rules? Yes, but that is an unethical, dishonest way to conduct business.
2.3.4. Refer to #1.
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http://areyoureadyfortherapture.blogspot.com/ |
Friendly Face
Posts: 473
3/12/12 5:37 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
I have a family member who is an O.B. pastoring a CoG fellowship & his local fellowship owns the whole thing. It was a new church plant a number of years ago that sprang up out of a local ministry to help support social causes & thereby filed a non-profit application & eventually bought property with buildings. That gave birth to a church back in the early 70's & they have abided by all the conditions & covenants since then in terms of how a local church helps to support their denomination. It can and should be done since it ties the hands of the local church to do effective evangelism at times. The largest Christian denomination in the U.S. allows all of it's churches to be locally owned & they seem to be doing quite well.
We're the only group I know of that treats certain subjects as tabboo. We should be asking questions about why we can't see a balanced audit sheet from a nuetral 3rd party auditor based on national office finances, why do we not allow women to be allowed to become Ordained Bishops, churches are not allowed to own local property, pastors can be removed from their churches w/out much explanation & the G.A. makes decisions that sometimes are totally ignored???
We should all be given the option to own our facilities if we have the wherewithal to sustain our facilities w/out any help from the state or national offices and if our local fellowship is self incorporated.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
3/12/12 6:09 pm
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2ndgeneration |
I do not have a problem with property being deeded to the local church. However, that church cannot expect to be underwritten by the state office when they decided to secure a mortgage loan to build.
A reference was made by one poster about a large denomination whose property is deeded to the local church and that they are doing quite well. I agree with that statement. However, if that is in reference to the Assemblies of God, there are many church properties that are deeded to the Assemblies of God.
If a local church expects the state office to make an initial investment, especially a new church plant, then it needs to be deeded to the Church of God.
If any church not deeded to the Church of God goes into default then they cannot expect the headquarters to bail them out. North and South Georgia both have had and still does have churches that they are paying the mortgage for them. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1338
3/12/12 7:48 pm
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Change Agent |
Dan Eason stated:
"1. No, it is not allowed. Are there churches who have found a way to ignore the rules? Yes, but that is an unethical, dishonest way to conduct business.
2.3.4. Refer to #1."
You seem to blame the churches for evading COG ownership. What about the COG accepting these churches without property ownership. Does the COG organization not have some responsibility for going against their owns rules? Does the COG organization not have some rsponsibility for telling about the "exceptions" with an upcoming vote on "church affiliation" coming up in July. Is this one of the "taboo" situations that Cleveland refuses to talk about?l
I can just imagine the OB's at the GA saying our vote for or against "church affiliation" doesn't matter because of the "exceptions". How many other items will be voted on at the GA where that vote doesn't make any difference? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
3/12/12 8:14 pm
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Bro Bob |
| Quote: | Bro Bob stated:
"I do know of exceptions."
Would you mind sharing the type of exceptions you know about? The one that I hear about is a very large COG. |
I am not at liberty to say. I was told in confidence, as background information for an inquiry for my advice. Imagine that!
............
To Jamie:
You place me in the unaccustomed position of defending Cleveland to someone who is not in the CoG.
The fact is, deed held locally vs deed held by the larger body has pros and cons both ways.
The original name of the Church of God is ironic: Christian Union.
When I was a boy, the natural result of being looked down on by not only the world, but virtually every other Christian denomination was a sense of brotherhood and kinship between our churches. There were district fellowship meetings, camp meetings you cannot even describe to anyone younger than 30, and a sense in every congregation that we were all one.
You would recognize the style of dress anywhere. You would recognize the music style, know every song, even if it were first released at this past summer's camp meeting in the brand new convention songbook. The doctrine never varied one whit from one congregation to the next.
One thing they recognized from early on was a tendency on the part of some exciting new 'upstart' preachers to go independent once they figured out they could draw a crowd.
Therefore the language that still exists regarding not only not participating, but formally forbidding the assistance of an independent work.
If an atheist businessman took a good look at their "business Model" of that day, he would have been quite impressed.
The deed transfer was to keep the congregation from pulling out en-mass. You buy it, you build it, you deed it to us, and we will tell you who your next pastor is, and all it will cost you is a 20% (then) monthly franchise fee.
Ray Kroc was jealous.
The 20% had to be spent someplace, and spend it they did. 10% to state and 10% to GHQ. Of course this created many non pastoring job openings for men who had previously been adamant about their calling to that work, but now delighted in being relieved of it like I was delighted to retire from Goodyear.
But they also invested a lot of it into new field evangelistic work, and Missions work, and it was every bit as successful as McDonald's was.
Since the economy was generally without major depression, and the church base was growing, it seemed as if it would never end.
But as the size of the local church generally remained the same because of the use of the only management style they knew, and since the men who made their living from it also gradually but consistently increased their pay and benefits, pressure on the local budget brought about the first reduction in the ToT. (20% down to 15%)
Ironically, they didn't see that the thing that necessitated the ToT reduction had to change in order for the need to reduce it to go away.
No McDonald's franchise can just keep on increasing overhead faster than their competitors increase their prices.
So we are where we have been for a while. We are putting off tough decisions to the next guy. And we are seeing what used to be dependently loyal clergy openly threaten to walk away from debt they created and go down the road two blocks and leave you with a deed and an upside-down-Dave-Ramsey-rave-creating debt. Some of them make good on the threat.
As to the matter of not abiding by the MINUTES, once that dam is broken, you won't ever stop the flow.
I watched a team of bankers this past week "buy" commercial property they already had a lien on at auction because it brought only half of what was owed.
Though Cleveland may have a nice net worth statement with all that property on the books, it isn't really worth what it was a few years ago, and many churches owe more than their property would ever bring on the market. And church properties are among the least liquid assets you can imagine. There is a better market for used aircraft carriers.
I tell you what I would support. Give the church their deed. Never cosign a loan for them. Strongly advise them against ANY debt. Never re-assign a pastor who walked away from debt he supported entering into.
As Solomon said, the debtor is slave to the lender.
Last edited by Bro Bob on 3/12/12 10:43 pm; edited 3 times in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/12/12 8:40 pm
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chainrattler |
| 2ndgeneration wrote: | I do not have a problem with property being deeded to the local church. However, that church cannot expect to be underwritten by the state office when they decided to secure a mortgage loan to build.
A reference was made by one poster about a large denomination whose property is deeded to the local church and that they are doing quite well. I agree with that statement. However, if that is in reference to the Assemblies of God, there are many church properties that are deeded to the Assemblies of God.
If a local church expects the state office to make an initial investment, especially a new church plant, then it needs to be deeded to the Church of God.
If any church not deeded to the Church of God goes into default then they cannot expect the headquarters to bail them out. North and South Georgia both have had and still does have churches that they are paying the mortgage for them. |
Most banks are interested in the "giving units" of the local congregation, not the underwriting of the state office.
It would be better for the states and the International Committee to not have the financial obligation on the balance sheet of the entire Church. The purpose of a corporation in the first place is to share risk and limit liability. The entire Church is on the hook for a great deal of liability the way things are set up now. It would be better if each church were a local nonprofit corporation. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
3/12/12 8:44 pm
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| BB said!!! |
Cojak |
| Bro Bob wrote: |
I am not at liberty to say. I was told in confidence, as background information for an inquiry for my advice. Imagine that!
............
To Jamie:
And church properties are among the least liquid assets you can imagine. There is a better market for used aircraft carriers.
I tell you what I would support. Give the church their deed. Never cosign a loan for them. Strongly advise them against ANY debt. Never re-assign a pastor who walked away from debt he supported entering into.
As Solomon said, the debtor is slave to the lender. |
I liked and agreed with the whole comment BB, I loved the highlighted comparison, though not quite as bad. LOL but still a great comparison. Since my old carrier the Independence was moth balled a few years ago, it hit home.
But you did do a very in-depth narrative of how I too, have seen our church. I just could not say it as well. Thanks!!!.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
3/12/12 10:33 pm
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Joshua Henson |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Isn't it possible for a group of people to purchase a building and rent it to the church? Isn't that a way to get around the deed thing? |
I have heard "rumors" of that type of thing happening, but I don't know how true it is.
I do know from a recent property purchase that there is a local church board of trustees, but there is very specific language that must be on the deed.
I had to have that language in the deed to officially buy the property. I could see how an incorporated church could get around this easily.
That's always been one of my pet peeves. I never got the idea of incorporation if the property would be deeded to the COG.
I'm not for or against the deeding system, however, I think its proving to be problematic. I believe we could still keep our general system in place without deeding. I'm also certain that its not a scriptural mandate.
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Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com |
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
3/12/12 11:25 pm
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