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 Re: OTCP... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | But don't dare let's act like the scriptures have anything to say. If they are silent about it, maybe we need to be too. |
But I must say it, because they do. Way back in the OT (not ole timer, but Old Testament) in Proverbs 11:1 it says, "The Lord detests the use of dishonest scales, but he delights in accurate weights." A $5 dollar ticket fer a chance to win millions? That aint a honest scale. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/16/16 2:31 pm
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bonnie knox |
| I don't see how bowling or going on vacation is like playing the lottery. |
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Posts: 14803
1/16/16 2:35 pm
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UncleJD |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I don't see how bowling or going on vacation is like playing the lottery. |
Then you don't remember old-time Holiness. My grandparents equated all of it the same. In fact if I remember correctly there used to be practical commitments that concerned "worldly entertainment and amusement", and it was a sin to go to Disney Land, bowling, or roller-skating. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
1/16/16 2:55 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| UncleJD wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | I don't see how bowling or going on vacation is like playing the lottery. |
Then you don't remember old-time Holiness. My grandparents equated all of it the same. In fact if I remember correctly there used to be practical commitments that concerned "worldly entertainment and amusement", and it was a sin to go to Disney Land, bowling, or roller-skating. |
What about them what only went on vacation to Miracle Valley, or Tulsa, or Cleveland, an just set out on the grass in front a the offices? Was at wrong too? Or was it just "where" they went on vacation? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/16/16 3:01 pm
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bonnie knox |
I'm too young, I guess.
| UncleJD wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | I don't see how bowling or going on vacation is like playing the lottery. |
Then you don't remember old-time Holiness. My grandparents equated all of it the same. In fact if I remember correctly there used to be practical commitments that concerned "worldly entertainment and amusement", and it was a sin to go to Disney Land, bowling, or roller-skating. |
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Posts: 14803
1/16/16 3:10 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Gambling is fundamentally motivated by greed/covetousness, which the Bible says is idolatry. If not for the possibility of winning unearned money, no one would ever participate.
Bowling and roller skating and other similar recreational activities (like vacations) essentially promote mental, emotional and physical health, with no necessary violation of the moral law of God (benevolence, promoting the highest good of all) involved. |
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Posts: 12817
1/16/16 3:50 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I don't see how bowling or going on vacation is like playing the lottery. |
If the debate is somehow marginalized via the fact that money was spent on something fun or silly, then vacation got lumped in there.
Mt grandparents were of the same belief, they never took a vacation & in fact you weren't allowed to go to the carnival, county fair, bowling alley or picture shows because these were all places of sin ...don't even ask if you can go to the sock hop.
Money would be spent tossing the ring over the milk bottles to win the stuffed animal & I guess in their minds it was considered gambling.
I take exception to the opinion that a guy who drops a $10 bill on a $1.4 Billion dollar lotto is delving into idolatry & has therefore crossed the line with his greedy motives.
It sounds more like, 'hey, you never know ...maybe my little $10 bill will hit the jackpot' - foolish as it may sound some folks would be glad to do it cause somebody is going to win the dough, why not me?
I still say if your members win big & the check is in the clerks hand, are you going to rip it up & give it back or are you going to say, 'thank you Lord, you sure do bless in mysterious ways'?
In my opinion if you cash the check you have condoned the behavior that brought the tithe.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/16/16 4:25 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
If not for the chance to win unearned money, no one would ever participate in gambling.
If a church received a financial donation from a drug dealer, would that justify drug dealing? According to the logic advanced by some, it would. |
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Posts: 12817
1/16/16 5:06 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | If not for the chance to win unearned money, no one would ever participate in gambling.
If a church received a financial donation from a drug dealer, would that justify drug dealing? According to the logic advanced by some, it would. |
QW, it's not the same, drug dealing is against the law, lotto is not.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/16/16 5:12 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Gambling used to be against the law in most states, and marijuana has now been legalized in several states. Point being, man-made laws can change, are not always founded on enduring moral principles, and certainly do not always necessarily reflect God's moral law.
If a legal marijuana seller in Colorado wanted to tithe from his profits, would that justify the marijuana dealer's business? |
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Posts: 12817
1/16/16 5:20 pm
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| Quiet Wyatt... |
Aaron Scott |
The man who found the field with the pearl of great price...he seemed to want more than he had earned too.
When you buy a lottery ticket, you are using a $1 that you earned. It's your's to do with, so long as it's not illegal/immoral. If you want to buy a Coke, a candy bar, rent a movie, give it to a bum, or buy a lottery ticket in the hopes of having far more so that you can do far more, well, that's your business.
Why in the world would you try to make someone think it was sinful to buy a lottery ticket? Here's the deal: If it's a sin, it will send you to hell. If you're ready to tell us that buying a lottery ticket will send you to hell under regular circumstances, I hope you'll ready again that all things are lawful, but all things are not expedient. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/16/16 6:18 pm
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| Tom... |
Aaron Scott |
You do know what a speculator is, right?
The stock market can be played by skill to some degree--kind of like Texas Hold 'Em. But there is also a part that relies on luck and randomness.
You know, like the lottery. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/16/16 6:55 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Gambling used to be against the law in most states, and marijuana has now been legalized in several states. Point being, man-made laws can change, are not always founded on enduring moral principles, and certainly do not always necessarily reflect God's moral law.
If a legal marijuana seller in Colorado wanted to tithe from his profits, would that justify the marijuana dealer's business? |
Weed is still against the law to the feds, but again you're over reaching.
Weed is legal in certain states & nobody is advocating doing something illegal. I agree that this flies in the face of moral law but so does drinking a cold beer or smoking a cigarette, both of which is legal & has had it's own legal struggles considering prohibition. I'm looking for a reference in scripture that supports some sort of disqualifier but i don't see it other than your reference to greed & idolatry.
Again, if your church elders saw a tithe check in the plate for 6 or 7 figures I think you would have a hard time justifying giving the check back.
We may not like it but folks & preachers are gonna do things that we don't agree with. I just know in my spirit that God's grace/mercy/salvation are worth more than a lotto ticket. No Christian is going to hell over a lotto ticket but if their own personal motivation becomes such that they are driven by the madness of getting rich quick through lotto or casino, then they need to repent & turn it over to God.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/16/16 7:16 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Stock market???? |
All investing is motivated by greed and covetousness.
Buying low and selling high is a dishonest scale. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/16/16 7:26 pm
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Cojak |
I can remember when our church believed strongly that it was wrong to invest in stocks, bonds and cotton futures. It was gambling....
YOur ministerial retirement fund is funded by GREAT stock investments. One of the best I know of. Your investments pay off higher than most stock brokers in their assist. I wouldn't shame 'gambling too much', except it is for the good, huh?
I did not win OTCP, and I did not even say a bad word. 
However you will be winnning when you retire, because you will be living off INVESTMENTS not GAMBLING PROFITS. Just my thoughts...
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
1/16/16 7:34 pm
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| Some last thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
A "dishonest scale" has ZERO to do with playing the lottery. The lottery does not tell you that you have a very good chance to win. In fact, on some lottery tickets, the odds are written out for you.
In a sense, the lottery is completely honest. The numbers are selected by random. No one is cheating.
A dishonest scale is to not play fair. To give you less than you really bought. A lottery ticket is the purchase of a CHANCE. That's it. Nothing dishonest about it.
Now, an argument can be made that playing to lottery might offend a brother with a weaker conscience, as some seem to have. (This is not a dig--it's just true that some of us are far more sensitive to this than others.) On that point, I think a case could be made to either not play...or not play publicly.
Let's not preach for gospel what isn't clear in the scripture. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
1/16/16 7:47 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Dean,
The logic you are trying to use is like saying, "Well, if a weed dealer wanted to donate to the church, that would in itself justify selling weed." It's just absurd.
1. Even if a church took a donation from a drug dealer, that would in no way justify dealing drugs.
2. By the same token, if a lottery winner wanted to give to the church, that would in no way justify gambling.
3. Greed is never justifiable, under any circumstances.
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Gambling used to be against the law in most states, and marijuana has now been legalized in several states. Point being, man-made laws can change, are not always founded on enduring moral principles, and certainly do not always necessarily reflect God's moral law.
If a legal marijuana seller in Colorado wanted to tithe from his profits, would that justify the marijuana dealer's business? |
Weed is still against the law to the feds, but again you're over reaching.
Weed is legal in certain states & nobody is advocating doing something illegal. I agree that this flies in the face of moral law but so does drinking a cold beer or smoking a cigarette, both of which is legal & has had it's own legal struggles considering prohibition. I'm looking for a reference in scripture that supports some sort of disqualifier but i don't see it other than your reference to greed & idolatry.
Again, if your church elders saw a tithe check in the plate for 6 or 7 figures I think you would have a hard time justifying giving the check back.
We may not like it but folks & preachers are gonna do things that we don't agree with. I just know in my spirit that God's grace/mercy/salvation are worth more than a lotto ticket. No Christian is going to hell over a lotto ticket but if their own personal motivation becomes such that they are driven by the madness of getting rich quick through lotto or casino, then they need to repent & turn it over to God.
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
1/16/16 8:42 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Dean,
The logic you are trying to use is like saying, "Well, if a weed dealer wanted to donate to the church, that would in itself justify selling weed." It's just absurd.
1. Even if a church took a donation from a drug dealer, that would in no way justify dealing drugs.
2. By the same token, if a lottery winner wanted to give to the church, that would in no way justify gambling.
3. Greed is never justifiable, under any circumstances.
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Gambling used to be against the law in most states, and marijuana has now been legalized in several states. Point being, man-made laws can change, are not always founded on enduring moral principles, and certainly do not always necessarily reflect God's moral law.
If a legal marijuana seller in Colorado wanted to tithe from his profits, would that justify the marijuana dealer's business? |
Weed is still against the law to the feds, but again you're over reaching.
Weed is legal in certain states & nobody is advocating doing something illegal. I agree that this flies in the face of moral law but so does drinking a cold beer or smoking a cigarette, both of which is legal & has had it's own legal struggles considering prohibition. I'm looking for a reference in scripture that supports some sort of disqualifier but i don't see it other than your reference to greed & idolatry.
Again, if your church elders saw a tithe check in the plate for 6 or 7 figures I think you would have a hard time justifying giving the check back.
We may not like it but folks & preachers are gonna do things that we don't agree with. I just know in my spirit that God's grace/mercy/salvation are worth more than a lotto ticket. No Christian is going to hell over a lotto ticket but if their own personal motivation becomes such that they are driven by the madness of getting rich quick through lotto or casino, then they need to repent & turn it over to God.
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No QW in no way at all am I trying to justify a drug dealer giving to the church in any sort of way, I even made that point by saying nobody is advocating doing anything illegal.
I think you're trying to make a mountain out of this and it's not going to fly, sorry.
Selling weed is illegal in most states & it's against federal law in every state ...period!!!
Nobody should benefit from it at all ...are we clear here?
The lotto is legal almost everywhere & it's little more than a novelty. I don't see parents standing out in front of the local 7-11 store with their little kids waiting at the curb while mommy & daddy score some more lotto tix or scratchers.
I understand you trying to take the high road here & trust me I hear you loud & clear but again, nobody is advocating doing anything or benefitting by anything illegal in this context!
So for the final absolute final time, if the lotto winner drops the check for tithe at your church are you going to send it back or throw it away or deposit it?
It is a legal game to be played & you nor I can do anything about that.
I didn't make up the law for it & in fact I voted against it in my state.
Giving the situation above are you cashing this pretend check or not?
Don't try to accuse me of something that i didn't say just answer the question.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/16/16 8:58 pm
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diakoneo |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Stock market???? |
All investing is motivated by greed and covetousness.
Buying low and selling high is a dishonest scale. |
Yeah
If a certain MBT was around aka LC he could set us all straight on that.  
I really like him even if he is wrong (as is Tom Sterbens here) on some things. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/16/16 8:58 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Your argument seems to amount to the following, Dean:
"If it's legal, it's morally permissible."
I'm just using that same logic to show how wrong your logic is. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
1/16/16 9:38 pm
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