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Dave Dorsey |
| Poimen wrote: | | Wouldn't knowingly engaing your business in making such a site make you complicite in the sin perpetuated by the site? |
I certainly think so. There's no amount of money that would make it OK for me. But is that discrimination, to those arguing against the bakery? Should I just "make some money" and be done? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/4/13 11:53 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| Dave, how would you react to a gay person wanting you to design a website? 2 scenarios. 1, a gay person wanting a web site for his lawn business. 2, a gay person wanting a web site promoting a gay lifestyle, whatever that may be. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/4/13 12:18 pm
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Nick Park |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | I'm more on Nick Park's side of this debate than any other, but let me take it to an extreme. I'm a web developer. If I was approached by a pornography company and asked to provide a quote for a website, what would you suggest I do? |
That's a great question, Dave, and I think that the key principle is whether or not someone is forcing their views on someone else.
If they want you to sell them a generic web site package, to which they can then add their own pictures and video, then it's harder to see what grounds you have to refuse (unless, of course, you specifically market yourself as a Christian company catering purely to that religious market).
However, if they want you to handle pornographic material on your computers or servers then you have a perfect legal and moral right to refuse. They do not have the right to force their views or standards on you - no more so than they could demand that a Jewish caterer serve pork to them. Discrimination cuts both ways!
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
9/4/13 12:31 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Dave, how would you react to a gay person wanting you to design a website? 2 scenarios. 1, a gay person wanting a web site for his lawn business. 2, a gay person wanting a web site promoting a gay lifestyle, whatever that may be. |
Fine with the former, not OK with the latter. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/4/13 12:53 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Nick Park wrote: | That's a great question, Dave, and I think that the key principle is whether or not someone is forcing their views on someone else.
If they want you to sell them a generic web site package, to which they can then add their own pictures and video, then it's harder to see what grounds you have to refuse (unless, of course, you specifically market yourself as a Christian company catering purely to that religious market).
However, if they want you to handle pornographic material on your computers or servers then you have a perfect legal and moral right to refuse. They do not have the right to force their views or standards on you - no more so than they could demand that a Jewish caterer serve pork to them. Discrimination cuts both ways! |
I agree entirely, but I'm not sure what the difference is between that and this. The baker is being compelled to play a part in a ceremony to which he is morally opposed. If it were a simple matter of making a cake for a birthday party or something for someone who was openly homosexual, I don't think there is any justification for allowing a baker to discriminate and refuse service. But with regard to compelling a baker to provide a cake for a wedding ceremony -- I'm not sure how that's different than compelling me to host pornography on my server.
The baker's part is a step removed, admittedly. What if it was a DJ, or a banquet hall, or a caterer? Could a caterer be compelled to service a homosexual wedding? A banquet hall compelled to host its reception? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/4/13 12:57 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Nick Park wrote: | | If they want you to sell them a generic web site package, to which they can then add their own pictures and video, then it's harder to see what grounds you have to refuse (unless, of course, you specifically market yourself as a Christian company catering purely to that religious market). |
BTW, I appreciate the nuanced distinction here and I do agree with you. I'm just not convinced baking a cake for a ceremony is an example of the 'generic website package' type of service. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/4/13 1:00 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| I would love to hear from an attorney on this. Anyone? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/4/13 1:02 pm
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Nick Park |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: |
BTW, I appreciate the nuanced distinction here and I do agree with you. I'm just not convinced baking a cake for a ceremony is an example of the 'generic website package' type of service. |
We've all preached that we believe in black and white rather than gray areas - but sometimes it's hard to say where black starts and white stops!
I guess it all depends on what the cake was like. For example, I would see a clear difference between a white multi-layered cake which you know will be cut and distributed at a gay wedding, and a cake with a representation of two men kissing.
(Btw, in the midst of this philosophising we should not lose sight of the threats that were levelled against the bakers. Such threats of violence are worse than any act of discrimination.)
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
9/4/13 1:16 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| Poimen wrote: | | mytimewillcome wrote: | | Make the cake. Make some money. Done. |
Beware filthy lure. You cannot serve God and Mammon. The love of money is the root of all evil.
| Quote: | | Its not like refusing to make the cake will somehow turn them straight. |
No, but taking pleasure in unrighteousness (I'll gladly make a buck off them) is tantamount to complicitness in their sin. Touch not the unclean thing. |
So do you ask the cashier at McDonalds if they are a Christian before you order? |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
9/4/13 1:35 pm
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Poimen |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | mytimewillcome wrote: | | Make the cake. Make some money. Done. |
Beware filthy lure. You cannot serve God and Mammon. The love of money is the root of all evil.
| Quote: | | Its not like refusing to make the cake will somehow turn them straight. |
No, but taking pleasure in unrighteousness (I'll gladly make a buck off them) is tantamount to complicitness in their sin. Touch not the unclean thing. |
So do you ask the cashier at McDonalds if they are a Christian before you order? |
I do not understand the association you are trying to make here. Can you restate or rephrase, please?
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
9/4/13 1:38 pm
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Dforest1987 |
| I'm of the opinion that if you do not want my money, I'll find someone who does. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 54
9/6/13 10:04 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dforest1987 wrote: | | I'm of the opinion that if you do not want my money, I'll find someone who does. |
That's how I feel. I totally understand where discrimination laws came from, since there was an era in American history when discrimination against minorities was systemic. But now only a vanishingly small minority of people want to run their business in a discriminatory manner, so why not let them? And let those of us with sense purchase from their competitors instead. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/6/13 10:24 am
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Just a layman |
This situation is very cut and dry. There is no gray area, the owners of the company decided to refuse to make the cake, which is well within their rights. The people involved in the controversy (the gay couple) spread the word about the situation, again, well within their rights, and people refused to use the bakery in response. I don't know what the answer is, I don't know that there is a good answer.
It's the Dixie Chicks Syndrome:
1) YES, you have the right to say or act however you want
2) YES, people have the right to react however they want to against you
3) NO, you don't have any right to play the victim afterwards.
Just because you have the right to behave however you want, does not mean you are free from all repercussions to what you have done/said. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 742
9/8/13 2:58 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quote: | | the owners of the company decided to refuse to make the cake, which is well within their rights |
This is what I'm not sure of. Can they refuse to make a cake for a inter-racial couple, for example? Can they refuse a black couple? What is the law? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/8/13 6:16 pm
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Dforest1987 |
It really depends on the state. In most states sexual orientation is not included in anti discrimination laws.
However, I don't think I would sue the owners as much as get the word out about how sketchy they are.
_________________
"The first duty of love is to listen" -- Paul Tillich |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 54
9/8/13 7:26 pm
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theElder |
Dave, I would suggest that you quite hanging around with those kind of people!  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1924
9/8/13 11:35 pm
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