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 Re: There can be no "rightous" Jews ... |
Link |
| Mat wrote: | There can be no "rightous" Jews since there is no Temple. Without an active Temple, and priesthood, there can be no fullfillment of the commands, thus God's "chosen" people are the greatest sinners of all because they take refuge in the Law they do not obey. Somebody needs to "save" them from themselves. Who could do that?
Mat |
What about Jews who are made righteous through faith in Christ like the apostles were?
Jesus is Jewish.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/26/11 2:54 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Link wrote: | Isa. 58:12
Thank you for posting these commandments. I am sorry some people have a snarky attitude about laws the Lord gave to Israel.
As Paul wrote, '...the law is holy, just, and good.' All these laws are good.
But I do think your theological perspective is odd, and that your approach to the law is odd. I think many Orthodox Jews would agree with me and certainly many Messianic Jews would agree with me on this.
Consider this passage from Romans 3.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
It is okay to be a Gentile, and Gentiles can be righteous before God. In the future, as James points out from Amos' prediction, there will be nations of men on whom the name of the Lord is called. This will not be true of only the nation of Israel.
Acts 15:16-17
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
This was part of James' argument leading up to what the apostles and elders agreed was a Spirit-led decision that they should not compel Gentiles that "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law".
How did Paul treat Jewish believers when it came to this issue? Timothy had a Jewish mother, and Paul circumcised him for the sake of the Jews there. Paul did not circumcise Gentiles, like Titus. The apostles did not compel Titus to be circumcised.
When Paul dealt with a primarily Gentile audience in Galatia, he addressed the issue of those who wanted to circumcise the Galatians. These men wanted to hack off their foreskins. Paul suggested something else for these men:
Galatians 5:12
12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Or as the NIV puts it
"As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!"
Paul was not in favor of circumcising Gentiles and commanding them to follow the law of Moses. He also wrote this:
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
(NIV) |
Todah rabbah, thankyou very much for your kind words  . & to these comments:
| Quote: | | But I do think your theological perspective is odd, and that your approach to the law is odd. I think many Orthodox Jews would agree with me and certainly many Messianic Jews would agree with me on this. |
Let me explain my friend 
| Quote: | Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. |
(boldness is mine)
I, & the Messianic congregations that I have been to, do not try to keep the Torah to be justified, because no one can. The Law is not for justification, its for Blessings & living right before G-d Who wrote the Torah to His people Y'sreal. Where gentiles get grafted into.
| Quote: | | This was part of James' argument leading up to what the apostles and elders agreed was a Spirit-led decision that they should not compel Gentiles that "Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law". |
Acts 15 is not really about gentiles keeping Torah, but deals with keeping the religious leaders laws, Acts 15:1 in (which goes back to Gal 6:12, Tit 1:10. & verse 5, the greek word for sect is very helpful
& verse 10, is better understood with what Y'shua said in Matt 23:3-5. & verse 24 goes with verse 10, about people putting a yoke on you, "subverting" your souls saying: "you must be circumcised "&" keep the Torah, Law.
This not Torah.... Because the gentiles that converted & went to the synagogues every Sabbath (Acts 15:20) would learn how to live for Elohim. Not have everything slamed on you @ once. It was the religious leaders law that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved Acts 15:1.
I hope that helps, Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/26/11 9:14 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Daniel Rushing wrote: | | Which commandment is cursed? The whole 600+ of them. Because a man could follow everyone of them and still not be justified. The just shall live by faith! |
The Law is not for justification. Please read my response to Link, Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/26/11 9:15 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
What would you all say if I told you there is Mercy in the Law of Moshe, Torah @ the giving of the Law?
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 1:31 am
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bonnie knox |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | What would you all say if I told you there is Mercy in the Law of Moshe, Torah @ the giving of the Law?
Shalom |
Can we discuss this over a ham and Swiss on rye? (Jewish rye, of course.) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/27/11 1:36 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | What would you all say if I told you there is Mercy in the Law of Moshe, Torah @ the giving of the Law?
Shalom |
Can we discuss this over a ham and Swiss on rye? (Jewish rye, of course.) |
Sure bonnie, but I will be full , I'll just get something to drink. But do you believe that there is Mercy in the Law of Moshe, Torah @ the giving of the Law?
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 11:04 am
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Pastor Nations |
Isa,
You have either received some very bad teachings, or else you have invented your own cult belief system.
Either way, the devil is the father of lies.
You are not going to be able to recruit cult followers from this forum because most people here understand the old covenant has been obliterated and replaced by a new covenant with a similar, yet different set of standards.
Those that previously did not understand are learning the difference as you continue to manifest your doctrine of lies, and the light of Scripture reveals those lies for what they are.
Your writings have shown your disdain for "Christians", New Testament "letters", "Paul", etc.
You think Christians believe they can behave however they want because they don't adhere to lists.
Here is one example of old standards vs. new:
The old covenant had all sorts of regulations re: adultery, but the stricter new covenant standard says if you simply look at a woman to lust you have commmitted adultery.
The great beauty of this new covenant is that, although it is stricter, it brings freedom and liberty rather than bondage.
A person with a genuine relationship with Jesus, communion with the Holy Spirit, and a basic understanding of the New Testament would understand this with no problem.
Perhaps there is an "ex-Judaizers for Jesus" ministry somewhere that can help you, just like there is an ex-Mormons for Jesus that helps bring people out of that cult.
In the meantime, you are not going to be able to recruit people from this forum into your cult. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
12/27/11 12:06 pm
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theElder |
| Pastor Nations, once folks quit taking the bait and responding to his nutty ideas Isa will go elsewhere to peddle his wares. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1924
12/27/11 12:17 pm
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| Hay, Isa 58:12 ... |
Mat |
Hay, Isa 58:12, I can't tell by your writing style if you are a man or a women (no offense meant) and I don't remember seeing you reference yourself in that manner. My question is about circumcision, you see I was circumcised (perhaps on the 8th day) even though my family, as far as I know, are not Jewish. Now I was raised in a “holiness” environment in which all the 10 Commandants were kept along with many of the other laws (you know, no idols, no taking God’s name in vain including not swearing by His name, no stealing, etc.). So if I have the “mark of the covenant” and do as good as any Jew I know concerning the law am I more a “child of Abraham” then the “secular” Jews we see in both America and Israel?
Also, I would like to know if you are circumcised (that is if you’re a man)?
Mat
PS Our church has hosted serveral events with "Jews for Jesus" and I think they disagree with your views on the old covenant. Are you Jewish by birth? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
12/27/11 12:18 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Also, I would like to know if you are circumcised (that is if you’re a man)? |
Hey, maybe we could get the mods to set up a poll for us.
Just kidding.
Now see, if Eddie were still around he could just say, "TMI." |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/27/11 12:24 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | Isa,
You have either received some very bad teachings, or else you have invented your own cult belief system.
Either way, the devil is the father of lies.
You are not going to be able to recruit cult followers from this forum because most people here understand the old covenant has been obliterated and replaced by a new covenant with a similar, yet different set of standards.
Those that previously did not understand are learning the difference as you continue to manifest your doctrine of lies, and the light of Scripture reveals those lies for what they are.
Your writings have shown your disdain for "Christians", New Testament "letters", "Paul", etc.
You think Christians believe they can behave however they want because they don't adhere to lists.
Here is one example of old standards vs. new:
The old covenant had all sorts of regulations re: adultery, but the stricter new covenant standard says if you simply look at a woman to lust you have commmitted adultery.
The great beauty of this new covenant is that, although it is stricter, it brings freedom and liberty rather than bondage.
A person with a genuine relationship with Jesus, communion with the Holy Spirit, and a basic understanding of the New Testament would understand this with no problem.
Perhaps there is an "ex-Judaizers for Jesus" ministry somewhere that can help you, just like there is an ex-Mormons for Jesus that helps bring people out of that cult.
In the meantime, you are not going to be able to recruit people from this forum into your cult. |
Huh, well pastor nations.... this is not, as you say "my own cult belief system", I have Scripture for everything I say & believe, in all Texts of the Bible, Torah, Prophets, O.T. writings & N.T. & they all agree.
& you are absolutly right, the devil is the father of lies. By the Way, G-d doesn't lie, & He has given His people the Torah, Law of Moshe that "is" Truth Ps 119:160..... so thanks for pointing that out
& are you saying because I keep Torah with the Faith of Y'shua (Rev 14:12), I'm in a cult? huh....
& I'm guessing you do not believe there is Mercy in the Torah @ the giving of the Torah, right?
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 12:33 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| theElder wrote: | | Pastor Nations, once folks quit taking the bait and responding to his nutty ideas Isa will go elsewhere to peddle his wares. |
Taking the bait of what, G-ds Word? Because eveything Im telling you is in your Bible, whether you search it out or not. Its up to you to go study to show yourself approved. In ALL Texts
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 12:36 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | They won't stop.
Trust me.
I warned them for over a year, at least, that the more they responded to his garbage the more garbage he would post.
And back then, he was posting a whole lot more than he is, now. |
Well, he had been quiet for a while until SOMEONE had to bring up his name as losing his rank as nuttiest poster. SOMEONE who has honed to a science the demarcation between each of the seven planes of idiocy. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/27/11 12:38 pm
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| Re: Hay, Isa 58:12 ... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Lord Chancellor wrote: | | Mat wrote: |
PS Our church has hosted serveral events with "Jews for Jesus" and I think they disagree with your views on the old covenant. Are you Jewish by birth? |
There is another poster on this site who believes the same junk Isa spews, here. He just won't defend Isa, because he realizes how nutty he is and how people reject pretty much everything he says. So, he distances himself from Isa in order to maintain some semblance of credibility.
He's just another who will argue with you that we are to follow the Law, but will not answer simple questions about whether or not he cuts the hair on his temples or wears cotton with polyester or wool.
And if I recall correctly, he's one of those who also spends a good amount of time with a Messianic Jewish congregation. |
Gee, little "c", wow, I'd like to say that I am suprised to see you have no Scriptiures to (In all Texts of the Bible) to solidify your position for not having to "keep" the Creators Commandments...... but I'm not
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem
Last edited by Isa 58:12 on 12/27/11 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 12:40 pm
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| Well, to ALL Biblical scholars..... |
Isa 58:12 |
Why don't you just study something out.... here, Read Ex 32, 33, & 34 to understand
Ex 34:6-7: & Adonai passed by before him (Moshe) & proclaimed, Adonai the L-rd G-d, Merciful & Gracious, Longsuffering, & “Abundant” in Goodness & Truth (Gal 5:22). Verse 7: Keeping Mercy for thousands, “forgiving iniquity” (Jer 31:34) “&” transgressions “&” sin, ……..
Here is a startling new view of a Supreme Monarch on the earth, a King who forgives “Law” breaking, & trespass, & evil to anyone who “seeks” that forgiveness. He will not clear the guilty as long as they remain guilty.
But they need not remain guilty before Him, for His Law provides a Way to His Mercy. This means that the guilty remain guilty until they are willing to meet Elohim, G-d on the grounds of the Mercy which He institutes for their forgiveness.
Both Covenants speak that man needs a meeting with G-d for forgiveness. It’s the confession of sins of breaking Torah & repentance to make wrong things right. & on G-ds part, He offers forgiveness to the sinner for breaking His Torah, Commandments & “cover” him. So that he may enter the Kingdom of G-d.
The Torah, what people say “Old Covenant” that doesn’t matter anymore, was the supreme Wonder on earth, in the world @ that time because of His Mercy that was offered to all.
There never was any Laws in any other nation like it (Deut 4:6-8), now & then for the very reason of Mercy offered to all.
Shalom
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem
Last edited by Isa 58:12 on 12/27/11 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 12:42 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Well, he had been quiet for a while until SOMEONE had to bring up his name as losing his rank as nuttiest poster. SOMEONE who has honed to a science the demarcation between each of the seven planes of idiocy. |
Hey... now that you mention it... |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/27/11 12:42 pm
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| Re: Well, to ALL Biblical scholars..... |
Mat |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | Why don't you just study something out.... here, Read Ex 32, 33, & 34 to understand
Ex 34:6-7: & Adonai passed by before him (Moshe) & proclaimed, Adonai the L-rd G-d, Merciful & Gracious, Longsuffering, & “Abundant” in Goodness & Truth (Gal 5:22). Verse 7: Keeping Mercy for thousands, “forgiving iniquity” (Jer 31:34) “&” transgressions “&” sin, ……..
Here is a startling new view of a Supreme Monarch on the earth, a King who forgives “Law” breaking, & trespass, & evil to anyone who “seeks” that forgiveness. He will not clear the guilty as long as they remain guilty.
But they need not remain guilty before Him, for His Law provides a Way to His Mercy. This means that the guilty remain guilty until they are willing to meet Elohim, G-d on the grounds of the Mercy which He institutes for their forgiveness.
Both Covenants speak that man needs a meeting with G-d for forgiveness. It’s the confession of sins of breaking Torah & repentance to make wrong things right. & on G-ds part, He offers forgiveness to the sinner for breaking His Torah, Commandments & “cover” him. So that he may enter the Kingdom of G-d.
The Torah, what people say “Old Covenant” that doesn’t matter anymore, was the supreme Wonder on earth, in the world @ that time because of His Mercy that was offered to all.
There never was any Laws in any other nation like it (Deut 4:6-8), now & then for the very reason of Mercy offered to all.
Shalom |
My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; if you are a man are you circumcised; and do you observe every law, including those of the temple?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
12/27/11 1:05 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | How was that someone to know he was still lurking after a year-long absence, though? |
Now you know. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/27/11 1:06 pm
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| Re: There can be no "rightous" Jews ... |
Mat |
| Link wrote: | | Mat wrote: | There can be no "rightous" Jews since there is no Temple. Without an active Temple, and priesthood, there can be no fullfillment of the commands, thus God's "chosen" people are the greatest sinners of all because they take refuge in the Law they do not obey. Somebody needs to "save" them from themselves. Who could do that?
Mat |
What about Jews who are made righteous through faith in Christ like the apostles were?
Jesus is Jewish. |
True rightousness is only through Jesus Christ, Jew or Gentile, but you already know that. I speak of those who proclaim the Law as neccessary but are not able to keep the Law, seeing there is no Temple.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
12/27/11 1:07 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Huh, well pastor nations.... this is not, as you say "my own cult belief system", I have Scripture for everything I say & believe, in all Texts of the Bible, Torah, Prophets, O.T. writings & N.T. & they all agree. |
All cults claim this.
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | & you are absolutly right, the devil is the father of lies. By the Way, G-d doesn't lie, |
God does not lie, but it is a lie that we are under the old covenant.
Btw, it is not super-spiritual to use the Modern Hebrew with non-hebrew letters and then mix it in with English sentences.
For example in the English language it is spelled Moses, not Moshe. There is no English word spelled Moshe.
Also, I know what you are trying to do, but it seems that if you are writing in English that it is wrong to misspell God by omitting the letter o.
I am surprised that spelling God incorrectly is not on your list of do-nots.
Here are verses that show you are in bondage, and need deliverance.
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6 (NIV)
"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6 (NKJV)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2
Thus, you are in bondage and need deliverance. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
12/27/11 1:15 pm
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