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 Re: Will believers who don't tithe go to heaven? |
Resident Skeptic |
| krista wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | doyle wrote: | | Your opinion is... |
Maybe the question should be, "will preachers who preach the false doctrine of tithing go to Heaven?" |
Well, we know who doesn't tithe around here, don't we.  |
No I do not "tithe" as there is no such command in the Old or New Testament concerning money. I GIVE generously as the New Testament instructs disciples of Christ to do.
Furthermore, YOU do not "tithe" either in a Biblical sense since there is no command in the Old or New Testament concerning anyone giving ten percent of money.
Therefore, since YOU are not tithing in a true Biblical sense then I guess you'll be headed for hell when you die.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/20/14 6:39 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
No such thing as a "believer" that don't "tithe."
Folk that don't tithe aint true believers. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/20/14 7:16 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | No such thing as a "believer" that don't "tithe."
Folk that don't tithe aint true believers. |
Maybe folks who make such false statements ain't true believers but blindly accept their own share of extra-biblical nonsense. Folks that make statements like yours really need to back them up with bible, but they never do.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
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5/20/14 7:26 pm
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Poimen |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | No such thing as a "believer" that don't "tithe."
Folk that don't tithe aint true believers. |
I know this parody likes to push it sometimes, probably for sport. But wow! 
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
5/20/14 7:55 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
.......................  |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/20/14 8:18 pm
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bradfreeman |
In answer to the OP:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
No mention of tithing in here.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/20/14 8:31 pm
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philunderwood |
In the words of my granddaughter....
"Silly Brad, don't you know there is a hidden message between "believe" and "eternal life?""
And, Brad, based on the finished work and the words of Jesus Himself, how do you interpret this quote....
John 20.23 (AMP) [Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.
So, if I forgive the non-tither, (or a liar) are they released?
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Posts: 3954
5/20/14 10:19 pm
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Link |
For those folks who believe if you don't tithe you go to Hell, did you go up to Jerusalem last year and eat a tithe?
Did you give 10% of your flocks, herds, and crops into the Levitical priestly system last year?
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Posts: 11849
5/20/14 11:40 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Link wrote: | For those folks who believe if you don't tithe you go to Hell, did you go up to Jerusalem last year and eat a tithe?
Did you give 10% of your flocks, herds, and crops into the Levitical priestly system last year? |
Yes.
Yes. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/21/14 12:36 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Link wrote: | For those folks who believe if you don't tithe you go to Hell, did you go up to Jerusalem last year and eat a tithe?
Did you give 10% of your flocks, herds, and crops into the Levitical priestly system last year? |
Yes.
Yes. |
So you are under the Law?
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
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Posts: 8065
5/21/14 5:22 am
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Cojak |
My wife pays our tithe, It says so right on the Envelope! She fills in the blank right beside the word, so it must be a tithe. She also fills out the other blanks, she is sure the "COG is right hallelujah to the lamb" and I have no problem with it. . For you to convince mama it ain't Bible you would be calling some of the folks she admired and trusted most in this world, liars; her pastors. She has paid the 'tithe' to her local COG for over 65 years, you ain't gonna change that and I sure am not going to try.
I see it different and I would give the 10% and more of course, but if she wants to call it tithe, I ain't arguing........
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5/21/14 10:16 pm
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| Re: Will believers who don't tithe go to heaven? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NIV), Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Seems like I read sommers that folk that don't pay tithes is robbin God. I think a robber is the same as a thief. |
Don't you think you'd better prove that tithing is Biblical before calling people thieves? |
I only called em what Malachi called em. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/26/14 12:06 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | In answer to the OP:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
No mention of tithing in here. |
That verse don't mention committin adultery with ya momma-n-law after ya just killed ya daddy-n-law, right after ya robbed a bank an killed 5 tellers. UYmmmm, but I don't think any of these behaviors is OK. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/26/14 12:09 pm
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John Stevenson |
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
OTCP makes a good point. John 3:16 only says you have to believe. It doesn't mention that you have to be sorry for your sins or that you even have to quit sinning. So using that scripture to prove a point on tithing is bad hermeneutics.
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/27/14 8:41 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Look - a guy that doesn't give at least 10% to support a cause he believes makes a difference between heaven or hell - isn't worth much in my opinion.
Of course, if you have two coats and your neighbor has none - and you don't give him one of them - I don't think much of you either.
Some guys hammer home tithing....but still have more than they need in their own home - and store up a pretty good amount in their bank accounts (barns). I wonder what God will think of that?
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5/27/14 5:30 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
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A friend of mine sent me this.
Dispelling the myth that Jesus taught tithing for the New Testament church..
Matt. 23:23 Woe to you, scribes [teachers of the law: NIV] and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law -- judgment, mercy, and faith; these you ought to have done, without leaving the other undone.
| Quote: | | Luke 11:42 But woe to you, Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God; these you ought to have done, without leaving the other undone. |
1. In the context of Luke 11:41 true cleanliness of the conscience is achieved through freewill giving to the poor as compared to mandated giving of the law.
| Quote: | | Luke 11:41 But rather give alms [charity: NAS; to the poor: NIV] of such things as you have, and, behold, all things are clean to you. |
2. Jesus was BORN while full obedience to the Mosaic Law was required of Jews; Jesus LIVED while full obedience to the Mosaic Law was required; and he was KILLED while full obedience to the Mosaic Law was still required from Jews! The time-context of Matthew 23:23 is Law and not the New Covenant of grace for the Church.
| Quote: | | Gal 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. |
3. Jesus was telling his disciples about the sins and the woes he was placing on the Old Covenant Pharisees. He was not addressing the church under the New Covenant. Verses 2 and 3 are crucial for a correct understanding of verse 23.
| Quote: | | Matt 23:1-2 Then Jesus spoke to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. |
4. Jesus was condemning the scribes and Pharisees because of their high position as interpreters of the Law. This is the context of verses 2-12 before the woes on them begin. He is speaking TO his disciples ABOUT the dishonesty of their interpreters of the Mosaic Law. He is not discussing matters relating to the New Covenant church. He is “abasing” or “humbling” them with 8 woes from verses 12-36.
| Quote: | | Matt 23:2-3 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do… |
5. “Woe to you, scribes [teachers of the law: NIV] and Pharisees …” Matthew 23:23
Follow the word, “you.” It is absolutely clear that the “you” of Matthew 23:23 is the “scribes and Pharisees”! “You” neither refers to Jesus’ disciples nor to the church! The scribes and Pharisees were the ones sitting in Moses’ seat –not his disciples. They were the ones interpreting the Law –not his disciples.
6. “Hypocrites”: The scribes and Pharisees are the hypocrites --not Jesus’ disciples. They were the ones who had exaggerated the Law to make it a burden. And they were ones who refused to obey the laws they had exaggerated! Jesus is not disciplining his disciples!
7. “For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin …” The “you” is still the scribes and Pharisees from “woe is you scribes and Pharisees”! As interpreters of the Law they had exaggerated it to include ordinary garden spices which the Law had never included. The Mishnah and Talmud, not the Bible, defined tithes as "everything eatable, everything that was stored up or that grew out of the earth.”
The Pharisees prided themselves with scrupulous obedience to circumcision, Sabbath-keeping and tithing. They wanted the Jews to think that they could observe these three rites even better than what was expected of the Law. Meticulously counting micro-small spice seeds was their way of boasting. While quoting this very text to prove that Jesus taught tithing to the Church, there is probably no church on earth which tells its members to literally bring tithes of garden spices.
8. “And [you] have omitted the weightier matters of the law -- judgment, mercy, and faith.” Jesus is telling the scribes and Pharisees that judgment, mercy and faith” are more important “matters of the law” than is tithing.
It is incredible how often Christian tithe-teachers quote this verse and omit “of the law.” They then tell us that Jesus taught tithing and omit the historical context of the verse, the chapter and the covenant.
In fact, ALL of Matthew 22 and 23 is in the context of “matters of the law.” The Herodians had asked, "Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?" (Matt. 22:17). In the next discussion Jesus rebuked the Sadducees by quoting from the law (Matt. 22:32 cf. Exod. 3:6.). Next, one of the Pharisees asked, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" (Matt. 22:36). Matthew 23 continues the discussion of “matters of the law.”
9. “These you ought to have done, without leaving the other undone.” Again I have never heard of a church which required its tithers to bring tithes “of mint and anise and cumin” and demand that they “ought to have done” so in obedience to Jesus’ command in Matthew 23:23.
If this verse is supposed to be interpreted as Jesus’ command for Christians to tithe money (which the text does not clearly state) then it should also be interpreted as Jesus’ command for the church to tithe garden spices according to the Law (which the text does clearly state).
When Jesus said in verse 23, "You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former," he was re-enforcing for Jews, not the moral law which is eternal, but the current interpretation of the ordinances of the ceremonial law of the Old Covenant.
In fact, Jesus could not have told Gentile Christians “These you ought to have done” because Gentiles were not allowed to bring tithes and tithes would not have been accepted even it they attempted to bring them! In order to be legitimate, tithes must only come from Israelites and only from inside Israel!
10. Jesus only commanded Jews to observe the Mosaic Law and present themselves to the priests. He did not command non-Jews to do this because their lives were not governed by the Mosaic Law. It was not possible under the Law for non-Jews to be circumcised or tithe.
| Quote: | | Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if you [Jews] bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift). Matthew 8:4 " . . . go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded [Jews], for a testimony to them." |
11. It is easy to demonstrate that ALL of the woes in Matthew, chapter 23, are directed against the scribes and Pharisees. Yet the tithe-teaching church today wants to ignore every word of every woe directed against the Pharisees and burden the Church with tithing from Matthew 23:23. Such is very poor hermeneutics. The YOU is not the church!
vs13. Woe: YOU shut up the kingdom of heaven against men
vs14. Woe: YOU devour widows' houses; make long prayers
vs15. Woe: YOU make a proselyte a child of hell
vs16. Woe: YOU blind guides; YOU fools
vs23. Woe: YOU pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin (gnats)
vs25. Woe: YOU make clean the outside of the cup
vs27. Woe: YOU are like unto whited sepulchers
vs29. Woe: YOU serpents, generation of vipers
12. Jesus and his disciples were not required to tithe because they were poor. The gleaning incident recorded three times (Matt. 12:1-12, Mark 2:23-24, and Luke 6:1-2) is important. If a tithe were required from all persons and from all kinds of food harvested, then we could have expected the Pharisees to accuse Jesus and his disciples of not paying tithe on the grain they had just harvested and eaten. The lack of such an accusation proves that no such law applied to poor persons who harvested gleanings. Compare Leviticus 19:10.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/27/14 5:59 pm
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John Stevenson |
There is a lot of liberties taken in those scriptures and I don't know where to begin since so many of them are taken out of context.
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/28/14 12:23 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | | There is a lot of liberties taken in those scriptures and I don't know where to begin since so many of them are taken out of context. |
And you are not taking liberties with that one line "this ye ought to have done" by somehow claiming it proves Chrisitians are commanded by God to give 10% of their income to the church? No contextual reading. No hermeneutical rules applied. Wow.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 4:45 am
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John Stevenson |
If someone tells you that you "ought to have done" something that means that you should have done it. How else do you take that? That's simple English.
Also, no where in scripture does it say that Jesus and His disciples were poor. Jewish custom states that if Jesus was the oldest child and His father died that He was responsible for the financial welfare of His mother. If He neglected this responsibility He would of never been allowed to teach in one temple. And we know He taught in the temple. Also when Jesus was calling James & John, they left their father & the hired help. I don't know to many people that are poor that have hired help. Luke was a doctor. I don't know any poor doctors. And when Judas left the Upper Room, the other disciples thought he was going to give money to the poor. Why would they think this unless this was a common practice?
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/29/14 9:02 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| John Stevenson wrote: | If someone tells you that you "ought to have done" something that means that you should have done it. How else do you take that? That's simple English.
Also, no where in scripture does it say that Jesus and His disciples were poor. Jewish custom states that if Jesus was the oldest child and His father died that He was responsible for the financial welfare of His mother. If He neglected this responsibility He would of never been allowed to teach in one temple. And we know He taught in the temple. Also when Jesus was calling James & John, they left their father & the hired help. I don't know to many people that are poor that have hired help. Luke was a doctor. I don't know any poor doctors. And when Judas left the Upper Room, the other disciples thought he was going to give money to the poor. Why would they think this unless this was a common practice? |
Yes, the pharisees ought to have paid tithes, like all jews who produced produce or livestock grown in the land of Israel. Hmm. Are you a Jew living in the land of Israel before Calvary? Do you grow crops and livestock there? Then he was not speaking to you. There was no other tithe for Jesus to have been referring to, certainly not the mythical tithing of monetary income that you and others imagine exists. The covenant from which that Jewish tithing system sprang and the priesthood which necessitated it are gone. In the first part of Mathew 23 from which you are quoting, Jesus commanded the lepers he healed to show themselves to the priests. That was part of the LAW. If a leper is healed today should he go show himself to a Levitical priest? It's all about context of history and setting, something that a true scholar would understand.
When Jesus said in verse 23, "You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former," he was re-enforcing for Jews, not the moral law which is eternal, but the current interpretation of the ordinances of the ceremonial law of the Old Covenant.
In fact, Jesus could not have told Gentile Christians “These you ought to have done” because Gentiles were not allowed to bring tithes and tithes would not have been accepted even it they attempted to bring them! In order to be legitimate, tithes must only come from Israelites and only from inside Israel!
Jesus only commanded Jews to observe the Mosaic Law and present themselves to the priests. He did not command non-Jews to do this because their lives were not governed by the Mosaic Law. It was not possible under the Law for non-Jews to be circumcised or tithe.
Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if you [Jews] bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift). Matthew 8:4 " . . . go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded [Jews], for a testimony to them."
It is easy to demonstrate that ALL of the woes in Matthew, chapter 23, are directed against the scribes and Pharisees. Yet the tithe-teaching church today wants to ignore every word of every woe directed against the Pharisees and burden the Church with tithing from Matthew 23:23. Such is very poor hermeneutics. The YOU is not the church!
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/29/14 9:16 pm
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