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Reality |
I have read so much junk on this thread from many of you. My church averages over a thousand people on Sundays. This church was built on the idea that their are people out there that will not attend a church that is operated like so many of you run it.
Now, does that make you wrong? No, you are reaching the people you are supposed to reach. We on the other hand are reaching the people we are supposed to reach, The people who would go to hell if not for churches like mine or Kevin's and many others. It's time to stop casting stones and celebrate with one another that people are coming to Christ.
Last week we sang the Chris Daughtry song "It's Not Over" and people got saved. This week we sang a Casting Crowns song "Set Me Free" and guess what? PEOPLE GOT SAVED! There is a place for all of us. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 119
3/4/07 6:44 pm
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String Bender55 |
| Reality wrote: | I have read so much junk on this thread from many of you. My church averages over a thousand people on Sundays. This church was built on the idea that their are people out there that will not attend a church that is operated like so many of you run it.
Now, does that make you wrong? No, you are reaching the people you are supposed to reach. We on the other hand are reaching the people we are supposed to reach, The people who would go to hell if not for churches like mine or Kevin's and many others. It's time to stop casting stones and celebrate with one another that people are coming to Christ.
Last week we sang the Chris Daughtry song "It's Not Over" and people got saved. This week we sang a Casting Crowns song "Set Me Free" and guess what? PEOPLE GOT SAVED! There is a place for all of us. |
Thank you. Using MODERN MUSIC works, so does Christian music.
God bless your Church, I am sure it is a happening place. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/4/07 7:38 pm
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| Re: It is written: |
String Bender55 |
| COGCharlie wrote: | | Quote: | On this subject, I wish your mouth was as closed as your mind. We would all be better off. Who are you to Judge anyone. My judge is God, and God alone.
This is what I think. Like the bible says God uses many. Even unbelievers to convey his message. Who are you to judge what is right or wrong? |
First off you are rude, offensive and sinning by telling me to shut my mouth. But, I still love you brother even though you offended me. I did not once judge you. If you feel the heat because of your actions then so be it. I questioned your actions, not your heart for people. I think it is great that people will go great lengths to reach the lost. I think though in their desire to go that extra stretch, that they do things that should be questioned. By the way, I don't think you should shut your mouth just because you play music that doesn't worship God of lift up Jesus (as scripture commands) when we are in church.
| Quote: | Now, in regards to making people feel "comfortable" as you say. Well, yes & no. We live in a paradox of sorts. I want our programs to make people feel as comfortable as they can. We work hard to make sure that parking lot, greeters, music, presentation, temperature, etc are excellent and done w/ unchurched in mind. However, the goal of WHAT is communicated is to make them feel uncomfortable in their sin. If I don't do that...present the truth...I'm not doing my job. If people aren't confronted w/ their sin, we're wasting our time. So I live...and the way I do church lives in a paradox...in the tension.
Go ahead and accuse me of making people comfortable...but not unless you know the whole truth. |
When do you turn on/off your comfortability switch? (This is a serious question not meant to be read as sarcasm). When do you decide when someone needs to feel comfortable then uncomfortable? When do you decide to compromise some things you do in church then stand on some things you do? I am confused by what you do. A church should be so holy by the people that enter those doors, the others who enter them with them should feel that something is different... If you are only waiting for your words to "punch them in the throat" then you must be one amazing speaker! 80% of what people hear they forget in the first 30 minutes after leaving. So, if they are feeling comfortable and unchallenged by what we do during that short 1 - 2 hours window we have them, then you have helped them to lose their souls.
Do you preach anything about hell, judgment, holy living, modesty, lifestyle and those things? Just curious how far you go in your preaching. |
[/quote]
I was not rude or offensive. I was just making my wishes known. I still wish your mouth was as closed as your mind. But, if wishes were horses, beggars could ride.
So post anything you like.
BTW, I am anything but rude. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/4/07 7:42 pm
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| Re: It is written: |
wvwatchman |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | wvwatchman wrote: | | Quote: | | First off--enjoy your martyrdom. |
???????
| Quote: | | Now, in regards to making people feel "comfortable" as you say. Well, yes & no. We live in a paradox of sorts. I want our programs to make people feel as comfortable as they can. We work hard to make sure that parking lot, greeters, music, presentation, temperature, etc are excellent and done w/ unchurched in mind. |
How does this line up with scripture? Does listening to Satan glorifying music IN God's house make them comfortable? If you're a/c breaks one sunday morning would you call off service cause its too hot? They would surely not be comfotable in sweltering heat. What about the thousands in central and south america that walk for hours to church to sit in a one room schoolhouse fighting scorpions and rattlesnakes and the such on the way and find out all that is there is the unadulterated word of God? No donuts, no coffee, no parking lots, or ushers, just folk who love the Lord with all there mind, body and soul. Could that be why they have a much deeper walk with the Lord than the "churched" in america? They don't use the term "unchurched" down there. They use sin, like God uses. They don't have seeker-friendly programs down there, like I said earlier there are none. They don't have those in the "homosexual deathstyle" taking over Churches down there. Or in any other part of the world except in America where we have Christianettes in Bassinettes listening to Sermonettes. And all too many well-intentioned businessmen who need to spend more time shut in with Jesus that are willing to serve these babies. If the Preachers would step out from behind their plexi-glass pulpits and preach the Word, Be instant in season out of season, We MIGHT see a revival in the Land. But instead, since we haven't heard the heart of God, we offer up a new program, that is wholly un-Biblical. Or we haven't been delivered from un-Godly, sinful music ourselves, so we offer it to our consumers. Get back to the Bible Brother, and throw out all of that growth garbage and seek the face of Jesus. Unless HE builds the House, they labor in vain that build it.
I appreciate your zeal for the Lost, start by calling them what they are"sinners" you help no one out by calling them unchurched, as if churching them has any help in eternity. Get into the Word of God and stop compromising,sinning, by allowing this trash to infiltrate God's House. You will give an account.
LIFT JESUS HIGHER and upon this rock HE will build HIS church, then you will say"Look what the LORD has done" |
First of all...we don't live in South America. We live here. We do life here. We have church here. I love the people there...but we are trying to reach people in my neighborhood.
Now, and this will be the final thing that I have to say to you. Do not tell me that I am compromising anything when you have no clue what happens at my church. Don't dare tell me that the thing that all of my people have given their lives to is sin. You can take your "you'll give an account" haughtiness and sit on that. We will not talk again. I have much better thing to do with my time and energy than to waste it on someone who does not get what I'm trying to do (along w/ what alot of other people doing), but also someone who doesn't have the grace or people skills to communicate that effectively.
Enjoy your haughtiness. |
Wow, I never thought that a minister would be offended by hearing that they will give an account to God. You will, and so will I and the rest of us too. It doen't offend me one bit. The point about South America is they have Biblical church and it shows while we have some watered down imitation. Just because alot of other people do it , doesn't make it right. Actually, according to the Lord, the wide way leads to destruction. Thankfully, I am not from the relational group, too many new agers have opinions in the Church today. God doesn't need opinions or people skills to communicate that effectively. He has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. And His word will accomplish what it is sentto do, He doesn't need our help to do it.
Unfortunately, we have become too earthly minded for any heavenly good.
Less Hybel, More Bible
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Amos 8:11-12
John 12:32 |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
3/4/07 10:02 pm
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| Just a few assessments |
Telecaster |
| Reality wrote: | I have read so much junk on this thread from many of you. My church averages over a thousand people on Sundays. This church was built on the idea that their are people out there that will not attend a church that is operated like so many of you run it.
Now, does that make you wrong? No, you are reaching the people you are supposed to reach. We on the other hand are reaching the people we are supposed to reach, The people who would go to hell if not for churches like mine or Kevin's and many others. It's time to stop casting stones and celebrate with one another that people are coming to Christ.
Last week we sang the Chris Daughtry song "It's Not Over" and people got saved. This week we sang a Casting Crowns song "Set Me Free" and guess what? PEOPLE GOT SAVED! There is a place for all of us. |
Let me just say objectively, that churches like yours and Kevin's do about as much damage as good. For all those you reach, you turn a whole other sect of people off about Christ because they can't differentiate your church members' lifestyles and practices from the ones they are already living in some ways. Good people go to hell without Christ.
I've been reading the arguments about casting stones at you guys and questioning your methods and accusations of judgment. I've also read where those not agreeing with you guys have been called judgmental, close minded, and too traditional. You've questioned the reasons why they come down hard on you while you apparently don't come down hard against them. Right or wrong, I can tell you the reasoning is because traditionalism will never be confused for sin. It's considered old school and even to some degree ineffective in some rights, but to call preaching sin and living holy and sanctified sin would be crazy. You guys are getting hounded and "judged" because the new methods of being nontraditional include worldly influences, which can be considered sin. So with that being said, don't be so surprised.
Secondly, just a few statements:
The Bible speaks more of God's judgment than love.
What does the scripture "come out from among them and be ye seperate" mean?
What does it mean to go into all the world preaching to all nations and making disciples?
What do we do with the scripture, "what fellowship does light have with darkness?"
What can we learn from the Israelites constant lost focus of God after numerous times bringing in cultural concepts and attempt to worship God with them?
How can a song save someone for Christ?
These questions need answers. For me, when I answer them biblically, it condemns you guys' methods. As for the song saving people, no way did it. Music is so misunderstood today. The songs got the people emotional and they reacted. Salvation based off of emotion and not the Word won't last. The Word says that no one comes to the Father unless the Holy Spirit convicts him, not that no one comes unless they hear a song that they hear on the Top 40 that they like and they get emotional to it.
Lastly, all who believe, or have faith, and call on the name of the Lord will be saved. It's impossible to please God without faith. Faith comes by the Word, and the Word by hearing. Faith without works is dead.
Emotion don't cut it. It's a faith in God and a belief that their soul is lost and damned. Maybe it's just me, but I don't know if a secular song has the ability to communicate the indepth love and nature of the Holiest of Holiest. Whether 1000 come to church or 50, unless they operate off faith and are hearing the truth of the Word for what it is and operating from faith on that truth, then the works of that people is dead in God's eyes.
My last question is, who are the people who will stand before Christ one day and say, "Lord, Lord, in Your name we cast out demons, healed the sick, and performed miracles. And Christ will respond, Depart from me. I never knew you." |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/4/07 11:01 pm
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Poimen |
The Scripture, the NT, is very explicit about the kinds of songs we are to use in our gatherings:
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
3/4/07 11:13 pm
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Pastor Gary |
| Poimen wrote: | | The Scripture, the NT, is very explicit about the kinds of songs we are to use in our gatherings:… |
You interpret those verses as an exhaustive list? (As if it said "...teaching and admonishing one another only in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs..." -- that seems to presume something not said in the scriptures referenced.
_________________
I reserve the right to own my words and thoughts without edits. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3530
3/5/07 2:16 am
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Charlie Metz |
| Quote: | | My last question is, who are the people who will stand before Christ one day and say, "Lord, Lord, in Your name we cast out demons, healed the sick, and performed miracles. And Christ will respond, Depart from me. I never knew you." |
Telecaster, you hit it right on the head. There is a great influx of worldly influence in the church today. There are a lot of people who believe they have been saved by "Christianity lite" only to one day be told by Christ Himself that He didn't know them. Woe to them who have one foot in the world and one foot in Christ... God spews out the lukewarm.
I would prefer a church of 100 hot and on fire for God being obedient, spreading the gospel, than to be in a church with 1000 people who think they know God.
_________________
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt. 7:13-14 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 705
3/5/07 8:06 am
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| Poimen, Telecaster,Wvwatchman have posted some good |
Layperson |
posts.
I modified this post because I said some things that were not so nice( not because of the subsequent post, however).
I think the scripture about psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs settles the argument in my books. I only wish I had thought of it.
Last edited by Layperson on 3/5/07 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/5/07 8:07 am
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| Keep paying attention LP. |
Kyle Percival |
_________________
1 Cor. 10:31 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 742
3/5/07 8:21 am
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Reality |
| All I know is 70 people were baptized last year at the Creek. We have 400 adults meeting and studying the scriptures in LifeGroups. People are giving testimonies of their lives being turned around by the saving power of Jesus. Believers are growing deep in their faith and sewing seed into those who are new to the faith. That really sounds like a place God wouldn't approve of. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 119
3/5/07 9:03 am
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Layperson |
| Reality wrote: | | All I know is 70 people were baptized last year at the Creek. We have 400 adults meeting and studying the scriptures in LifeGroups. People are giving testimonies of their lives being turned around by the saving power of Jesus. Believers are growing deep in their faith and sewing seed into those who are new to the faith. That really sounds like a place God wouldn't approve of. |
That sounds great.
Would you share some of what you do? You may not be the one we are so critical of in this post. At least my criticism has been about people using punk rock groups (not Christian groups) that use sexual inferences and vulgar language in their songs. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
3/5/07 11:34 am
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| Come on now. We can do better than all this bickering. |
Voice of many Waters |
| Layperson wrote: | | Reality wrote: | | All I know is 70 people were baptized last year at the Creek. We have 400 adults meeting and studying the scriptures in LifeGroups. People are giving testimonies of their lives being turned around by the saving power of Jesus. Believers are growing deep in their faith and sewing seed into those who are new to the faith. That really sounds like a place God wouldn't approve of. |
That sounds great.
Would you share some of what you do? You may not be the one we are so critical of in this post. At least my criticism has been about people using punk rock groups (not Christian groups) that use sexual inferences and vulgar language in their songs. |
I think you all have missed the point about vulgar lyrics. I suggest CHANGING the lyrics to fit the occasion. I.E. My Youth Group did a Monkees song one time in service. The Song "I'm a believer". They changed to words and did a great job. The song has a very catchy tune and was written by one of America's premier songwriters. Neil Diamond.
So was that wrong? Them singing a secular song (That everybody knew) with new lyrics. I do not see the problem. You guys need to lighten up. What is the difference what song the words are the real message. As long as it lifts up the name of Jesus, then you should lift up the name as well.
Can't we all just try and understand each other? Just because it is wrong for you does not mean it is wrong for everybody.
Voice of Many Waters |
Friendly Face
Posts: 372
3/5/07 12:26 pm
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KevinLloyd |
The main ? on this post has been "WWJD?" Of course, we live in a different day than he did. But I still hold to the fact that Jesus would've used ANYTHING SHORT OF SIN to reach the lost...secular music, movie clips, culturally hot topics, felt need issues, etc to communicate & engage the audience.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
3/5/07 12:35 pm
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| Re: Come on now. We can do better than all this bickering. |
Telecaster |
| Voice of many Waters wrote: | | Layperson wrote: | | Reality wrote: | | All I know is 70 people were baptized last year at the Creek. We have 400 adults meeting and studying the scriptures in LifeGroups. People are giving testimonies of their lives being turned around by the saving power of Jesus. Believers are growing deep in their faith and sewing seed into those who are new to the faith. That really sounds like a place God wouldn't approve of. |
That sounds great.
Would you share some of what you do? You may not be the one we are so critical of in this post. At least my criticism has been about people using punk rock groups (not Christian groups) that use sexual inferences and vulgar language in their songs. |
I think you all have missed the point about vulgar lyrics. I suggest CHANGING the lyrics to fit the occasion. I.E. My Youth Group did a Monkees song one time in service. The Song "I'm a believer". They changed to words and did a great job. The song has a very catchy tune and was written by one of America's premier songwriters. Neil Diamond.
So was that wrong? Them singing a secular song (That everybody knew) with new lyrics. I do not see the problem. You guys need to lighten up. What is the difference what song the words are the real message. As long as it lifts up the name of Jesus, then you should lift up the name as well.
Can't we all just try and understand each other? Just because it is wrong for you does not mean it is wrong for everybody.
Voice of Many Waters |
Could you read the entire thread before posting next time? I think that question was answered back on page 2 and again on 3 and maybe again on 5 and 6 . . . .  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 1:58 pm
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Reality |
| Give 'em a break. It would take a week to read this whole thread. Chill out! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 119
3/5/07 2:02 pm
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Telecaster |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | The main ? on this post has been "WWJD?" Of course, we live in a different day than he did. But I still hold to the fact that Jesus would've used ANYTHING SHORT OF SIN to reach the lost...secular music, movie clips, culturally hot topics, felt need issues, etc to communicate & engage the audience. |
I'll agree He would use anything Kevin, but would He have replaced the sacred parts of a worship service with worldly things? I say no. At the basis of everything He did was a call to repentence. He was brutaly honest with those who knew the law and didn't have it in their hearts. They had taken the law and perverted it to become excuses for their actions and beliefs. Unfortunately, I feel your movement has done much the same. If you wanted to get real technical, Jesus even gave the idea of how to do praise and worship. On more than one occasion, before He spoke to the disciples using illustrations and such, it says they came together and sang hymns, or interpretted, praises unto God. Secular music has always been around, and I think it's important to note that when Christ led disciples in worship, he used what is referred to as hymns or what would be today our praise and worship. Substituting secular songs by artists who stand for everything but Christ can't lead people into anything but emotionalism, and emotionalism doesn't save. I've said my piece more than one time on this topic and have questions that have gone unanswered, so I'm done. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 2:05 pm
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Telecaster |
| Reality wrote: | | Give 'em a break. It would take a week to read this whole thread. Chill out! |
Well he should read it then. If someone's going to take the time to respond to a thread, reading it first would be a good place to start. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
3/5/07 2:06 pm
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| Re: Poimen, Telecaster,Wvwatchman have posted some good |
Pastor Gary |
| Layperson wrote: | | I think the scripture about psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs settles the argument in my books. I only wish I had thought of it. |
Then maybe you can answer the question I asked Poimen:
You interpret those verses as an exhaustive list? (As if it said "...teaching and admonishing one another only in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs..." -- that seems to presume something not said in the scriptures referenced.
Do you use the same method of exegesis for this passage?
"Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 150:4-6
Are those the ONLY instruments allowed? Do you use both loud and high-sounding cymbals at your church? Timbrel and dance? No instruments not listed?
_________________
I reserve the right to own my words and thoughts without edits. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3530
3/5/07 2:17 pm
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String Bender55 |
| Telecaster wrote: | | Reality wrote: | | Give 'em a break. It would take a week to read this whole thread. Chill out! |
Well he should read it then. If someone's going to take the time to respond to a thread, reading it first would be a good place to start. |
I think VoM was just making a point. I know what he is saying and he was just giving his opinion. So change your string Telecaster. Use some Ernie Ball Super Slinky's in the hot pink pack.
Buy them on-line and they are cheaper. Try Musicians friend! |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5681
3/5/07 2:19 pm
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