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bonnie knox |
| Do you think God has a physical mouth? |
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Posts: 14803
9/17/16 9:23 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: |
PS not knowing the word Rhema exists is immaterial to the fact that you were given one that you held onto , stood upon for that need. IT was alive to you from God. It was a Rhema whether you knew it or not. |
No, someone made up a definition for rhema that goes beyond what the word actually means to try to describe what is simply faith.
The idea that a word from God is not alive just because it is written rather than spoken is just not substantiated at all by scripture.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word [logos] of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. |
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Posts: 14803
9/17/16 9:29 pm
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| Re: Yes but you Capitalized CAN NOT |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | | reputable (is that a oxymoron to you OTCP) WoF teacher. |
Yes, BJ, it is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a reputable WOF teacher. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
9/17/16 9:44 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Is there ANY scriptural basis for the theory that when a word "comes alive" to someone it becomes rhema? |
Like Darwinian Evolution, it is merely a manmade theory, Miss Bonnie. Not one speck a biblical basis. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
9/17/16 9:45 pm
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| Re: Hogwash |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I don't care how many theologians sign on, there IS a difference!
When Peter received the vision from the Lord about clean/unclean, there was nothing in the "written scriptures" to clearly support that. |
The idea that people can have revelation that goes deeper than just reading the Bible does seem to be Biblical. I'm thinking of the Pharisees who had the Bible but had heard God's voice at any time mentioned in John 8.
But as far as getting this distinction from the way 'logos' and 'rhema' are used in the Greek, that seems to be one of the many Greek myths heard in church. I read a post online where someone said he believed the teaching originated with at Full Gospel Businessmen in the 1950's or '60's. I forget which. The WOFers certainly caught on to it.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/18/16 1:26 pm
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| Re: Hogwash |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | I don't care how many theologians sign on, there IS a difference! |
Herein lies the sadness of ALL error, whether WOF or any other type. When given the historical, theological and exegetical evidence to the contrary, they scream (whether audibly or in their heart) HOGWASH. It's true because either:
1. I say so.
2. I believe it.
3. My favorite preacher/teacher taught it this way.
4. It fits within my theological system.
5. God revealed it to me.
Course, the Mormons, JW's, an ever other cult says the same thing. |
No, herein is the reason that many Protestants were burned at the stake, etc. The theologians of the Catholic Church said on thing, the Protestants said another, so, clearly, the Protestants are wrong.
When you are ready to explain the Bible examples I gave, go ahead and do so. Until then, don't think that the comments you provided carry any weight. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
9/18/16 2:01 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Aaron, bless your heart, there is a spiritual element to receiving God's word. I think we all agree that the Holy Spirit's role is to illuminate God's word to us. But that doesn't mean we can just make up a meaning to the word "rhema." People are using the word "rhema" to describe the concept of the Holy Spirit revealing God's word to us, but there is no basis for using "rhema" this way. |
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9/18/16 2:09 pm
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| Aaron, Down in the Carolinas |
brotherjames |
| When someone says "bless your/their heart" they are really cussing you out or calling you an idiot. Just to let you know. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/18/16 6:11 pm
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| Re: Aaron, Down in the Carolinas |
bonnie knox |
Yankees think that is always the case because they just can't believe we Southerners have mastered nuance, bless their hearts.
| brotherjames wrote: | | When someone says "bless your/their heart" they are really cussing you out or calling you an idiot. Just to let you know. |
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9/18/16 6:27 pm
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| Re: Hogwash |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | When you are ready to explain the Bible examples I gave, go ahead and do so. Until then, don't think that the comments you provided carry any weight. |
Very well:
When Peter received the vision from the Lord about clean/unclean, there was nothing in the "written scriptures" to clearly support that. This could easily have been a word of knowledge, word of wisdom, etc.
There was nothing in the scriptures to support Paul knowing that the everyone on board would survive. After all, plenty of good folks before him had died serving the Lord. An angel of the Lord stood by him the previous night and told him. That was neither a logos or rhema, but a relayed message.
There IS a difference. The written words, when God touches them, become THE WORD OF GOD. Before that, it's ink on a page. Great reading...but little more until the Lord quickens it. This is absurd! The written word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, while on the printed page.
But there are some things that God gives to you that are not at all clear from scripture--though such a word would not be at odds with scripture, since God would not make that mistake. No one is arguing against this, but what he gives isn’t necessarily a rhema.
Here's the thing: If it was right there in the written word, everyone, saint, sinner, agnostic, pagan, heathen, and atheist, could see it and know it. But there are deeper things not only in the WRITTEN WORD, but also things given to us fresh from heaven. It is “right there” in the written word and it is so clear that even a simpleton could understand it.
The scriptures have not ceased to be written. They are STILL being written, even though we will never accept them as canon. There is no reason to think they have ceased! That is just another form of cessation, I believe. This is not cessationism. The canon is closed, Aaron. Scripture IS NOT still being written. What is written is forever settled in heaven. Done deal. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
9/18/16 11:12 pm
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| Re: As I stated in the thread this came from |
Link |
| brotherjames wrote: | | The Rhema vs Logos comments were more of an aside and were NOT the main thrust of the paper. The two words are NOT used interchangeably in scripture hence my argument with the writers. They mean two different things - ie. Rhema a spoken word (living) vs Logos the written word. |
You might be right that they aren't used 'interchangeably.' But they don't mean what a lot of Charismatics (especially WOF) and Pentecostals use them. Logos doesn't mean 'dead word on the page with no life from the Spirit behind it.' When we consider that 'Jesus' is the Logos, then WOFers shouldn't be saying, "They just got the logos. They don't got to rhema word." If we get words of knowledge on the spot, not through the Bible, why aren't they rhemas of knowledge instead of being logoi of knowledge?
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/19/16 6:54 pm
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Link |
It seems like a good rule of thumb when you come across an insight from on eof the WOF preachers, including Kenneth Hagin, Sr. about the Greek is that it's probably not true. Or maybe it's 50-50.
Kenneth Hagin taught that since God was good, He didn't make people sick or do certain things to people that people consider 'bad'. He said that someone told him there was some Hebrew grammatical category that could be translated 'allowed' instead of 'caused.' I don't think he bothered to check and see if any of the verses in the Old Testament that disagreed with his theology fell into this Hebrew form or not.
But in the Old Testament, the LORD told Israel if they met certain conditions, that He would put upon them none of the diseases that He put upon the Egyptians. If He allowed Himself to put the diseases upon the Egyptians or if He did it, He did it either way and takes credit for it. The song of Miriam also declares God responsible for drowning the Egyptians.
God is good, and it is good of God to bring His judgments on those who oppose Him. It isn't right to 'blame' something on the Devil that God takes credit for.
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Posts: 11849
9/19/16 7:00 pm
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| All I can say Link is |
brotherjames |
| OMG! SERIOUSLY? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
9/19/16 7:08 pm
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| Re: All I can say Link is |
Link |
| brotherjames wrote: | | OMG! SERIOUSLY? |
What are you going to say next? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
And seriously, a lot of WOFers do think that way. They have a problem with the idea that God has ever put sickness on people under judgment or other calamities (e.g. sickness on the Egyptians.)
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Posts: 11849
9/20/16 11:19 am
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Da Sheik |
This highlights a bigger problem of exegesis. I have studied Greek but I am far from what I would consider a scholar. I have difficulty with English grammar at times. However, there are many exegetical problems that arise because people try to draw a sharp distinction between similar words. Back when I was in school, we used something similar to a Thesaurus to keep from repeating the same words in an assigned paper.
I think Mark L mentioned this in another thread, but it is worthy of repeating. The bible is a literary masterpiece. It is the inspired Word of God, but it's also literature. Sometimes different Hebrew/Greek words are used to convey the same meaning. It doesn't mean some sharp distinction must be drawn. I'll give an example:
"Today I purchased a new car. It's the first new vehicle I've ever purchased. It's a fine automobile. " |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
9/20/16 12:57 pm
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bonnie knox |
To take your analogy a step further, let's suppose I arbitrarily decide that when you say "automobile" you have taken "vehicle" to a whole new level. It's not just a car anymore, it's a RIDE! Now I make up all kinds of convoluted stuff saying that "automobile" designates a level of classiness and finery that car just doesn't. So when you make your positive confession, be sure to claim your "automobile," not just your "car," always naming the color of your preference, of course.
(I kid you not, we had a WOF lady at a church I used to go to teaching us about positive confession and she used the example of a 16-year-old daughter of a friend who was specific in her confession and got the Mustang in the precise color she wanted.
Now that wasn't just a car, that was an automobile!) |
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Posts: 14803
9/20/16 1:14 pm
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Da Sheik |
| bonnie knox wrote: | To take your analogy a step further, let's suppose I arbitrarily decide that when you say "automobile" you have taken "vehicle" to a whole new level. It's not just a car anymore, it's a RIDE! Now I make up all kinds of convoluted stuff saying that "automobile" designates a level of classiness and finery that car just doesn't. So when you make your positive confession, be sure to claim your "automobile," not just your "car," always naming the color of your preference, of course.
(I kid you not, we had a WOF lady at a church I used to go to teaching us about positive confession and she used the example of a 16-year-old daughter of a friend who was specific in her confession and got the Mustang in the precise color she wanted.
Now that wasn't just a car, that was an automobile!) |
Precisely. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
9/20/16 1:19 pm
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | To take your analogy a step further, let's suppose I arbitrarily decide that when you say "automobile" you have taken "vehicle" to a whole new level. It's not just a car anymore, it's a RIDE! Now I make up all kinds of convoluted stuff saying that "automobile" designates a level of classiness and finery that car just doesn't. So when you make your positive confession, be sure to claim your "automobile," not just your "car," always naming the color of your preference, of course.
(I kid you not, we had a WOF lady at a church I used to go to teaching us about positive confession and she used the example of a 16-year-old daughter of a friend who was specific in her confession and got the Mustang in the precise color she wanted.
Now that wasn't just a car, that was an automobile!) |
I think a lot of people argue from the Greek that way. Also, I hear a line of reasoning that tries to draw too much out of a particular context a word is usd in and put it in the definition. It would be like if English were some ancient language, and someone read an ancient scrap of paper in English about a magazine on a table and defined table as 'something you put magazines on.' People also squeeze an awful lot out of the etymology of Greek words. It's part of the way the field works, especially looking at words over time. But in English, 'sinister' doesn't mean left-handed, and 'atonement' means something other than 'at-one-ment.'
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/20/16 6:58 pm
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| Re: As I stated in the thread this came from |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Logos doesn't mean 'dead word on the page with no life from the Spirit behind it.' |
Good point Link...
Hebrews 4:12 (NASB95)
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. |
Link is correct, such teaching is mere woffie propaganda. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
9/21/16 7:21 am
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| Can I get a witness? |
bonnie knox |
| bonnie knox wrote: | The idea that a word from God is not alive just because it is written rather than spoken is just not substantiated at all by scripture.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word [logos] of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | The written word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, while on the printed page. |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | Hebrews 4:12 (NASB95)
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. |
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Posts: 14803
9/21/16 7:23 am
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