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| Quote: | | I met with the elders that night and I informed them that after much prayer I believed that God wanted me to leave the denomination. |
| Quote: | For me, the points of departure were the result of my inability to continue to trust my family and my calling to the processes and actions of Church of God leadership:
The sudden revelation of the power over my life, for someone to put my family and me on the street with less than 48 hours notice. And the seeming absence of concern for the trauma it would cause my family.
The absolute refusal to reconsider my remaining as pastor, even if we made the payments and the additional positions were terminated immediately.
The “ambush” of distrust on Thursday by three members of the state council which, I regarded as a final and irrefutable opinion of how they viewed my character and brotherhood.
The unwillingness of those in leadership to accept any responsibility for their knee-jerk reactions to our situation; that they were not completely informed prior to making such a weighty decision; and that a state council could exercise such force as to disregard the office of the state AB as being the final voice of my appointment. |
I mean this genuinely. Did the Lord speak to your heart and tell you to leave the denomination? How much did these reasons you give go into your decisions, and are these things you prayed through with the Lord?
I am one of those posters who is not in the COG now, who has spent some time in the denomination and in the affiliated Indonesian branch of it. Biblically, I don't see any justification for a denominational system like the COG. The churches in the New Testament apparently had some authonomy on the city level-- or rather they were to be led by Christ through elders and the congregation following the word and percieving the direction of the Spirit. Isaiah said the word of the LORD would go out from Zion, and the apostles and elders in Jerusalem did give some direction in terms of doctrine in Acts 15, and sent some men to new believers and new churches as in the cases of Samaria and Antioch, to give instruction. The congregations sent money back to the saints in Judaea, partly because they owed them and partly because those saints were poor, and that was a good thing. But there was not tight central control headquartered in Jerusalem, Antioch at all from what we see in the Bible. Locally there does not seem to have been some tight central control from one pastor either.
Some people treat the idea of leaving the denomination as a sinful thing and have a whole list of rules of ethics about it, some of which assume that denominations have God's approval. I Corinthians 1 doesn't make it look too good for denominations, at least if we wrap our identity up in it and are exclusive about how we view or treat other believers. I suppose the Lord could use a difficult weird situation to get someone out of a denomination if some of the work he may need to do down the line requires him to be out of the denomination. I don't know if that is the case there, necessarily. But I certainly don't see any Biblical justification for the denominational structure.
Btw, before anyone calls the AB a liar, it is possible he had sort of forgotten that he had the authority to let pastors go and not the state council. He may have gotten an email from the new guy at the bank who wasn't used to dealing with the pastor stating that the bank wasn't comfortable dealing with the existing pastor. It is possible that he was intentionally lying, putting the blame on another group. The state council came to check the church. If they did come to meet with you based on 'rumours' then maybe they were following Matthew 18. Maybe they couldn't stop people from generating rumours, but didn't they come and meet with you? Sure, it's insulting in a way to think that you might steal, but how well do they know you? If you were just a report and a name on a piece of paper to them, how much do they know about your integrity.
From an economics point of view, I don't see a lot of incentives lining up to keep people in the COG. It seems like people are part of it for reasons like fellowship and heritage. It puts pastors and their families in a vulnerable situation. Churches give a lot of money for church buildings that the denomination has power over.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/3/13 3:51 pm
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Buck Marshall |
Very good initial question. It was The Lord, I believe, that enumerated those issues to me. It was for those reasons He has led me to surrender my credentials.
As for the question of Matt 18 and the men. I have known those men and they have had relationship with me since I was a youth. And, the progression in Matt 18 is simple, one on one first, take someone with you second, involve the church last.
If I am trusted enough to remain the pastor, then I should be called first when they received calls about rumors. At least that is how I do it. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 758
7/3/13 4:05 pm
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JLarry |
| Quote: | | Did the Lord speak to your heart and tell you to leave the denomination? How much did these reasons you give go into your decisions, and are these things you prayed through with the Lord? |
I would say the Lord spoke very clearly through an AB. The Lord don't have to shout to us. Many times he uses circumstances to speak through us.
I don't ask the Lord what to eat for breakfast.
Last edited by JLarry on 7/3/13 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
7/3/13 4:07 pm
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| Someone answer a question for me |
zjudah1 |
When was the last time the AB pastored a church?
1) Laying off personnel is the MO for just about every pastor/business owner who has been faced with a financial crisis. It's a standard quick fix.
2) Another quick fix is to tighten the financial wrench. (Cut the spending)
3) I knew the state council had authority, but to make demands of the Overseer?
4) My pastors council can ask, but demand?
I absolutely hate it that this church is losing the Pastor, staff and council. Hind sight...who's gonna make the payment now? A payment two months behind is better than no payment at all...(Just say'n)
Buck, you're a gift! Not a hireling!
God Bless |
Friendly Face
Posts: 202
7/3/13 4:07 pm
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| Re: Someone answer a question for me |
Shane B. Stone |
| zjudah1 wrote: | When was the last time the AB pastored a church?
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2006 - Dillon Church of God.
I worked with Wayne in Charleston, SC as his associate/youth pastor in 1999-2000. He moved in 2000 to Dillon and stayed until he went to the PNW as overseer.
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Acts-celerater
Posts: 913
7/3/13 4:13 pm
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| Re: Someone answer a question for me |
Link |
| zjudah1 wrote: |
I absolutely hate it that this church is losing the Pastor, staff and council. Hind sight...who's gonna make the payment now? A payment two months behind is better than no payment at all...(Just say'n)
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It sounded to me like a church was losing a building and a denominational affiliation.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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7/3/13 4:13 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
One thing that doesn't make sense at all is the claim that the overseer received an email and a voice mail from the bank that it was calling the note and then it turned out they really were not calling the note.
It seems that the whole debacle was based on either a lie or an incredible (and inexcusable) misunderstanding by the state overseer if the account of things related by Buck is true. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/3/13 4:17 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| sheepdogandy wrote: |
How did the intentions of Spurling ever come to this?
Remember the "equal rights" portion of the initial invitation to do business as the Church of God? |
As much as I LOVE to disagree with you  , your question is valid and needs an answer |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
7/3/13 4:50 pm
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| Folks, folks, folks... |
Aaron Scott |
These things happen. That's not a justification. It's just a fact. Whenever there are difficult situations, there are often responses that are out of context...or taken out of context...or are wrong responses...or are perceived wrongly.
It happens. Good and decent men--think of Paul and Barnabas--can see things so differently that they part ways. I don't think that was God's intention...but "only by pride cometh contention." Someone not backing down gracefully, someone not being as humble as they need to be, or perhaps both sides getting a bit ahead of themselves, etc. (And I'm not pinning this on ANYONE! We are ALL susceptible to making less-than-great decision when we are under pressure, when our emotions are high, etc.)
But remember that every year overseers make THOUSANDS of decisions. They aren't going to get everyone right. And every years pastors make perhaps as many decision, as well. There are simply going to be missteps. It's just the law of averages at work. Not every decision is going to be homerun. Some are going to be abject failures.
It happens.
I have no doubt that both Bro. Marshall and Bro. Dority are choice men of God. So were Paul and Barnabas. The question is whether reconciliation will rule the day...or not.
I am dismayed that some are using this occasion to "confirm" their darkest thoughts about the Church of God. Or to take "satisfaction" that they are not in the Church of God. Or to cause them to question all they they have invested in the Church of God. If all you can see is the dark side of such matters, then there is more at play here than this particular event. It is a form of stereotyping that we would find repugnant if it were used against those of another race.
Plenty of great men stood with the Church of God when it was totally rocked in 1923. If anyone had cause to question it all, they did. Let's not allow ourselves to use broad strokes against the entire denomination that God placed us in just because of an event in Texas.
One Overseer made the wise comment: "Every decision I make, I'm going to make some folks happy and others mad."
That's the truth. Same with pastors, I know. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
7/3/13 5:34 pm
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Judah4Him |
Delete
Last edited by Judah4Him on 7/3/13 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 468
7/3/13 5:46 pm
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| Re: Folks, folks, folks... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | These things happen. That's not a justification. It's just a fact. Whenever there are difficult situations, there are often responses that are out of context...or taken out of context...or are wrong responses...or are perceived wrongly.
It happens. Good and decent men--think of Paul and Barnabas--can see things so differently that they part ways. I don't think that was God's intention...but "only by pride cometh contention." Someone not backing down gracefully, someone not being as humble as they need to be, or perhaps both sides getting a bit ahead of themselves, etc. (And I'm not pinning this on ANYONE! We are ALL susceptible to making less-than-great decision when we are under pressure, when our emotions are high, etc.)
But remember that every year overseers make THOUSANDS of decisions. They aren't going to get everyone right. And every years pastors make perhaps as many decision, as well. There are simply going to be missteps. It's just the law of averages at work. Not every decision is going to be homerun. Some are going to be abject failures.
It happens.
I have no doubt that both Bro. Marshall and Bro. Dority are choice men of God. So were Paul and Barnabas. The question is whether reconciliation will rule the day...or not.
I am dismayed that some are using this occasion to "confirm" their darkest thoughts about the Church of God. Or to take "satisfaction" that they are not in the Church of God. Or to cause them to question all they they have invested in the Church of God. If all you can see is the dark side of such matters, then there is more at play here than this particular event. It is a form of stereotyping that we would find repugnant if it were used against those of another race.
Plenty of great men stood with the Church of God when it was totally rocked in 1923. If anyone had cause to question it all, they did. Let's not allow ourselves to use broad strokes against the entire denomination that God placed us in just because of an event in Texas.
One Overseer made the wise comment: "Every decision I make, I'm going to make some folks happy and others mad."
That's the truth. Same with pastors, I know. |
This is a great post Aaron.
I heartily concur!
Let's all doubt ourselves just enough to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt - even when we are sure he is wrong.
My wish - somehow, someway - that the pastor be restored to this church, finances become easy, and his ministry becomes extremely fruitful. That's my wish. That's my prayer.
I ask you (Genesis 18:14) Is anything too hard for the Lord?
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
7/3/13 6:21 pm
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Phillip Johnson |
According to the timeline, the overseer played both sides. If the council were being truthful, the overseer basically told them they had to remove the pastor. Then the overseer told pastor Marshall that he had no choice but to remove him as they had mandated it. I'm sad but not surprised.
Last edited by Phillip Johnson on 7/3/13 6:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4989
7/3/13 6:23 pm
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| Thank You |
Bullseye77 |
"For me, the points of departure were the result of my inability to continue to trust my family and my calling to the processes and actions of Church of God leadership:
1.The sudden revelation of the power over my life, for someone to put my family and me on the street with less than 48 hours notice. And the seeming absence of concern for the trauma it would cause my family.
2.The absolute refusal to reconsider my remaining as pastor, even if we made the payments and the additional positions were terminated immediately.
3.The “ambush” of distrust on Thursday by three members of the state council which, I regarded as a final and irrefutable opinion of how they viewed my character and brotherhood.
4.The unwillingness of those in leadership to accept any responsibility for their knee-jerk reactions to our situation; that they were not completely informed prior to making such a weighty decision; and that a state council could exercise such force as to disregard the office of the state AB as being the final voice of my appointment."
Thank you Brother for taking the time to write out the details of this incident. I know it must have been painful for you to rehash all of it, and even more painful to live through it. I am sorry for you and your family. These things ought not to be. Based on the above quoted summation of the incident, I fully understand your reaction. In no way can I fault you for this. I think your situation has highlighted one of the weaknesses in the Church of God. I have experienced similar circumstances in the past that affected the care of my family, and felt absolutely no compassion at the state level. Although I did not leave the Church of God, I have never been able to fully engage in the denomination and have since operated more independently because of the encounter with two different Overseers. I have had, and have now, wonderful Overseers for whom I am grateful. But the scars from yesterday remain. I pray that you and your family fully recover from this unfortunate situation and that God will bless your ministry, whether in or out of the Church of God. God Bless.
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On Target!! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1441
7/3/13 6:23 pm
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SouthGeorgiaBoy |
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1037
7/3/13 6:34 pm
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| Re: Folks, folks, folks... |
SouthGeorgiaBoy |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | These things happen. That's not a justification. It's just a fact. Whenever there are difficult situations, there are often responses that are out of context...or taken out of context...or are wrong responses...or are perceived wrongly.
It happens. Good and decent men--think of Paul and Barnabas--can see things so differently that they part ways. I don't think that was God's intention...but "only by pride cometh contention." Someone not backing down gracefully, someone not being as humble as they need to be, or perhaps both sides getting a bit ahead of themselves, etc. (And I'm not pinning this on ANYONE! We are ALL susceptible to making less-than-great decision when we are under pressure, when our emotions are high, etc.)
But remember that every year overseers make THOUSANDS of decisions. They aren't going to get everyone right. And every years pastors make perhaps as many decision, as well. There are simply going to be missteps. It's just the law of averages at work. Not every decision is going to be homerun. Some are going to be abject failures.
It happens.
I have no doubt that both Bro. Marshall and Bro. Dority are choice men of God. So were Paul and Barnabas. The question is whether reconciliation will rule the day...or not.
I am dismayed that some are using this occasion to "confirm" their darkest thoughts about the Church of God. Or to take "satisfaction" that they are not in the Church of God. Or to cause them to question all they they have invested in the Church of God. If all you can see is the dark side of such matters, then there is more at play here than this particular event. It is a form of stereotyping that we would find repugnant if it were used against those of another race.
Plenty of great men stood with the Church of God when it was totally rocked in 1923. If anyone had cause to question it all, they did. Let's not allow ourselves to use broad strokes against the entire denomination that God placed us in just because of an event in Texas.
One Overseer made the wise comment: "Every decision I make, I'm going to make some folks happy and others mad."
That's the truth. Same with pastors, I know. |
This is a great post Aaron.
I heartily concur!
Let's all doubt ourselves just enough to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt - even when we are sure he is wrong.
My wish - somehow, someway - that the pastor be restored to this church, finances become easy, and his ministry becomes extremely fruitful. That's my wish. That's my prayer.
I ask you (Genesis 18:14) Is anything too hard for the Lord? |
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1037
7/3/13 6:39 pm
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Troy Hamby |
| what really bothers me was your 2nd post Buck. They seriously asked you to let 2 staff members go so that you could pay the ToT? So, let 2 people go who are making an actual difference in the local church and the local community so that you can contribute to some slush fund that props up a bloated system? Makes sense to me. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2458
7/3/13 6:43 pm
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| From another thread.... |
Buck Marshall |
I really think that this should all be on the same thread...so I am posting it here. Here is what was written on another thread and my responses to it:
First let me begin by saying that I have represented myself and the events that I experienced…I would never go so far as to say I was representing all of TEXAS. Secondly, while I am glad to answers these points that are largely covered already in my post on the other thread…I thought it important to ask this:
Are you receiving your information from Bishop Wayne Dority and TX state council members?
Does Bishop Wayne Dority know anonymous people are posting on his behalf?
While I don’t expect you to answer any of those…I will address your points. I may not always…as I have people I need to pay attention to here…but for now…I will.
| oldbigtex wrote: |
1. Buck Marshall has borrowed over twice what was originally owed on the building. He owes 430,000. When he went to the church it was under 200,000. |
This is almost true. The amount is not accurate but close enough…also, I wrote this in the other thread. The elders and I with a 100% unanimous vote of the congregation as well as with the underwriting of the state council and signature of the state overseer…we borrowed the money. I believe that their underwriting and the state overseers signature explicitly says they were in agreement with that decision. This along with the entire church’s approval seems to indicate unity for all who this loan affected. To say Buck Marshall borrowed…is a gross overstatement of the truth.
| oldbigtex wrote: |
2. Buck still owes thousands in back reports. I believe it is somewhere between 10-20 thousand. Whatever it is, it is times two because he owes it to state and general. |
This too was covered in the other post. The actual rounded figures are $15,000 to General and $12,000 to state. This was when the overseer told me to pay the mortgage instead of ToT when I could only pay one or the other. I was told that if I were to begin to pay it for 12 months…the back ToT would be forgiven at least in part. When I did this (for almost 3 years now) no one seemed to remember telling me that…much less actually helped me with it. No one’s fault but mine.
| oldbigtex wrote: |
3. This was third incident. He was called in by the same committee by two different overseers. The incident over two years ago, was almost identical to this one. In the incident two yrs ago, buck said this won't happen again. He basically didn't hold his word. The bank drafted the state office funds over two years ago to pay buck current on his mortgage. |
Item 2 and 3 are the same incident. And again, were covered in my other post. Except for one thing. Not only did I not say this would never happen again…but I said that it would happen. By “it” I mean the mortgage. I said that I would pay the ToT no matter what…and I have. EVERY MONTH FOR THE LAST 2 years and 10 months…it’s about to be 2 years 11 months the ToT has been paid. I have kept my word. I told them I would pay the ToT even if I couldn’t pay the mortgage. They said that when I did that God would bless me.
| oldbigtex wrote: |
4. Buck called in by same committee a few weeks ago. He didn't do what they asked. He still had way too many staff do a church of 125-150 and his wife was paid full time too. Three months behind on his mortgage. He did not make it current til he was forced. Why not get money before you are made to get it. |
This one is just full of untruths. First of all you downgraded our church attendance…lol. Again these items were covered in the other thread. The committee I met with didn’t give us any recommendations. They may have given some to the overseer but I never saw them. They asked me what I thought we needed to do. That is when I told them that the elders and I had talked to a staff member and told them that we were letting them go at the end of July. Also, since December I had been in adhering to an agreement with the CoG foundation to refinance with them…which we were approved. Further we were asking to consolidate the two loans. They said that if we were able to bring the mortgage current in 90 days they would probably be able to do it. One more thing. My wife is not paid full time…if she were…we would not be able to afford her.
| oldbigtex wrote: |
5. He still is three months behind on a second note to cog benefits borde. |
Not true. I called Clayton Watson at the end of the year concerning our loan with the CoG Foundation. We had never missed a payment in five years. I told him that financially things were shifting. He asked how he could help. I said I didn’t know what he could do, but I would appreciate anything. He said that he could allow us to not pay the next three months if we would then pay 6 months on time (as we always had) after that they would be able to put the three months on the back of the loan. This was not being late. This was an agreement that I was offered. We met those conditions and that is why they sent me the letter letting me know that the board had agreed to refinance our loan with the CoG foundation for a lower interest rate. I have all the emails if you would like me to release them publicly.
I love Wayne Dority as well. I have never said I was squeaky clean. I have made lots of mistakes. I have owned them all. I have done so in front of my church on Sunday mornings throughout the last 6 ½ years as well as now. I don’t hide. I am not now. What about you…Old big tex?
Last edited by Buck Marshall on 7/4/13 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 758
7/4/13 12:24 am
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| Church name |
deskjet7 |
First, I am shocked you left the Church of God. Last I spoke with you on the phone you were not leaving.
I am curious about you being able to keep the same name. I didn't think you could take the church name with you. The name belongs to the church you left. Also the website. You simply took the "of God" off and took what does not belong to you or the congregation that left. The name should remain. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/4/13 2:18 am
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Buck Marshall |
| Check your inbox |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 758
7/4/13 2:49 am
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| Nothing in my inbox. |
deskjet7 |
| Buck Marshall wrote: | | Check your inbox |
Who was that for? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/4/13 7:36 am
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