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 Is the shekinah glory or glory cloud....etc....NT? |
caseyleejones |
Is that a NT reality that happens in today's church? Is there scripture for that to transpire on a Sunday service?
I have heard it the last 30 years in various circles. I have been in services where they said the glory cloud fell......but it was more of a heavily emotionally driven service. It wasn't anything bad per se.....just very experiential.
thoughts? Serious responses only please. THANKS. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
1/15/17 4:04 pm
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| Re: Is the shekinah glory or glory cloud....etc....NT? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| caseyleejones wrote: | | I have been in services where they said the glory cloud fell......but it was more of a heavily emotionally driven service. It wasn't anything bad per se.....just very experiential. |
This is serious, Casey, seriously.............
There is no NT concept/practice/experience of a "glory cloud." I too have been in services too numerous to count where folk would say something like "the glory cloud fell." These services were always "heavily emotionally driven" and "experiential." Like you said, it don't make em "bad per se." Course, it don't make em a "glory cloud" either. |
Acts-pert Poster
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1/15/17 7:40 pm
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I seem to recall reading or hearing about a cloud like that being seen at the Azusa Street Revival, which also had an influence on the COG denomination. (I believe I remember a Brother Cashwell attending.) I also remember reading about people seeing fire, including claiming to see fire on the building and the fire department being called.
IMO, some people can have a weird idea of what is 'Biblical.' God created all of us and He is smart and creative, and He has His own will. Where does the Bible teach that God is not allowed to do something unless He specifically tells us He will do it in the Bible, or has done the exact same thing before and recorded it in the Bible. Had God ever used anyone to open the eyes of the blind before Jesus did it? Had God ever had anyone split a body of water apart before Moses did it? That doesn't make Moses doing such a thing wrong.
There are some things people claim are from God that go against what He has revealed to us, that we can reject. If someone claimed the Lord was appearing and telling people to go worship some false god at a Hindu temple, we know better. That's an example of something that is unbiblical.
There is actually an example of a cloud appearing in the temple in the Old Testament. A voice also spoke out of the cloud at the transfiguration.
That doesn't mean someone who claims to see a cloud at a church meeting really saw the same sort of thing, but it doesn't mean they didn't either.
As for gold dust appearing, could that be a miracle from God? I don't see any examples of gold dust in the Bible. But I don't see blue jeans in the Bible either. The lack of blue jeans in the Bible doesn't mean God couldn't direct me to go buy someone a pair of blue jeans.
Who are we to say that God wouldn't, couldn't, or won't make real gold dust appear or something that looks like it? I don't have a right to make such a pronouncement. That doesn't make all claims true. But claiming gold dust appeared as some kind of miracle isn't against anything in the Bible, and God is sovereign, so we need to keep that in mind.
How about Christians falling backwards when you lay hands on them. Where is that in the Bible?
OTCP, show me the belt jerk in the Bible. Is that Biblical?
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/16/17 11:19 am
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| I would have to disagree with the ole timer on this one |
brotherjames |
It is Biblical in the OT as we know. God appeared to the Israelites in the cloud by day and fire by night. His Presence while not given the Hebrew name of Shekinah in the OT always manifested in a glorious cloud. Consider how the Glory cloud appeared at the dedication of the temple in 2 Chronicles 5:14 and 7:1-2 so that even the priests could not enter nor minister because of the cloud. The KJV says they could not STAND to minister by reason of the cloud giving rise to the idea of even being "slain" to the ground by the weight of the Presence. Even the word used for Glory in the OT is Kabod which refers to the weightiness of the Presence of God. It is likened to putting on a shawl made of lead so heavy it would cause one to be driven to the ground.
There is the precedent for the Shekinah - the Glory cloud apprearing in the NT as well. Consider Luke 2:9 where the bright light of His Glory appeared at the birth of Jesus; consider the transfiguration of Jesus and Moses and Elijah and the cloud that appeared there where God spoke to the Disciples thru the cloud - Matt. 17:5, Luke 9:31, and also the appearance of Jesus in a bright cloud to Saul on the road to Damascus surely counts as the Shekinah as well. Acts 9:3 & 22:11.
At Azusa, as mentioned the cloud often appeared - it was said to come as a mist that rose from the floor and as reported the fire dept was called numerous times to put out a fire that could be visibly seen from the roof of the church at Azusa St. not that that makes it Biblical per se but if God appeared to Israel in the cloud and God does not change why would you think it improbable that God would appear to us now in the same manner? Last I read Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Hmmm
So, I for one would not chalk up all the reports of the cloud to emotionalism or hype. While I have not experienced it personally, I have experienced His Tangible Presence. I felt God. The ancient Rabbis said the Shekinah was present wherever 10 men were gathered in prayer. WHy Not? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
1/16/17 12:35 pm
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| Re: Is the shekinah glory or glory cloud....etc....NT? |
caseyleejones |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | caseyleejones wrote: | | I have been in services where they said the glory cloud fell......but it was more of a heavily emotionally driven service. It wasn't anything bad per se.....just very experiential. |
This is serious, Casey, seriously.............
There is no NT concept/practice/experience of a "glory cloud." I too have been in services too numerous to count where folk would say something like "the glory cloud fell." These services were always "heavily emotionally driven" and "experiential." Like you said, it don't make em "bad per se." Course, it don't make em a "glory cloud" either. |
Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
1/16/17 5:49 pm
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| Re: I would have to disagree with the ole timer on this one |
caseyleejones |
| brotherjames wrote: | It is Biblical in the OT as we know. God appeared to the Israelites in the cloud by day and fire by night. His Presence while not given the Hebrew name of Shekinah in the OT always manifested in a glorious cloud. Consider how the Glory cloud appeared at the dedication of the temple in 2 Chronicles 5:14 and 7:1-2 so that even the priests could not enter nor minister because of the cloud. The KJV says they could not STAND to minister by reason of the cloud giving rise to the idea of even being "slain" to the ground by the weight of the Presence. Even the word used for Glory in the OT is Kabod which refers to the weightiness of the Presence of God. It is likened to putting on a shawl made of lead so heavy it would cause one to be driven to the ground.
There is the precedent for the Shekinah - the Glory cloud apprearing in the NT as well. Consider Luke 2:9 where the bright light of His Glory appeared at the birth of Jesus; consider the transfiguration of Jesus and Moses and Elijah and the cloud that appeared there where God spoke to the Disciples thru the cloud - Matt. 17:5, Luke 9:31, and also the appearance of Jesus in a bright cloud to Saul on the road to Damascus surely counts as the Shekinah as well. Acts 9:3 & 22:11.
At Azusa, as mentioned the cloud often appeared - it was said to come as a mist that rose from the floor and as reported the fire dept was called numerous times to put out a fire that could be visibly seen from the roof of the church at Azusa St. not that that makes it Biblical per se but if God appeared to Israel in the cloud and God does not change why would you think it improbable that God would appear to us now in the same manner? Last I read Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Hmmm
So, I for one would not chalk up all the reports of the cloud to emotionalism or hype. While I have not experienced it personally, I have experienced His Tangible Presence. I felt God. The ancient Rabbis said the Shekinah was present wherever 10 men were gathered in prayer. WHy Not? |
That glory cloud....so to speak is now in me and on me. Back in the OT, it descended but left. Man was only covered but not a new creation.
Today, the HS has fallen and remained. It's better. I think it very disingenuous to use an OT occurrence and make it a church belief. Yes, Paul saw a light. But to say the HS descended so heavily in a service is not scriptural when dealing with the NT church. Could it be the reason they could not stand to minister in the old covenant is because they were unregenerate man?
There really is no place in the NT where that happened in a church. As OTCP stated, nothing wrong with that happening, but it might just be more of a emotionally driven experience....or just an expression of how one is worshiping. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
1/16/17 5:58 pm
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| Re: I would have to disagree with the ole timer on this one |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| brotherjames wrote: | It is Biblical in the OT as we know. God appeared to the Israelites in the cloud by day and fire by night. His Presence while not given the Hebrew name of Shekinah in the OT always manifested in a glorious cloud. Consider how the Glory cloud appeared at the dedication of the temple in 2 Chronicles 5:14 and 7:1-2 so that even the priests could not enter nor minister because of the cloud. The KJV says they could not STAND to minister by reason of the cloud giving rise to the idea of even being "slain" to the ground by the weight of the Presence. Even the word used for Glory in the OT is Kabod which refers to the weightiness of the Presence of God. It is likened to putting on a shawl made of lead so heavy it would cause one to be driven to the ground.
There is the precedent for the Shekinah - the Glory cloud apprearing in the NT as well. Consider Luke 2:9 where the bright light of His Glory appeared at the birth of Jesus; consider the transfiguration of Jesus and Moses and Elijah and the cloud that appeared there where God spoke to the Disciples thru the cloud - Matt. 17:5, Luke 9:31, and also the appearance of Jesus in a bright cloud to Saul on the road to Damascus surely counts as the Shekinah as well. Acts 9:3 & 22:11.
At Azusa, as mentioned the cloud often appeared - it was said to come as a mist that rose from the floor and as reported the fire dept was called numerous times to put out a fire that could be visibly seen from the roof of the church at Azusa St. not that that makes it Biblical per se but if God appeared to Israel in the cloud and God does not change why would you think it improbable that God would appear to us now in the same manner? Last I read Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Hmmm
So, I for one would not chalk up all the reports of the cloud to emotionalism or hype. While I have not experienced it personally, I have experienced His Tangible Presence. I felt God. The ancient Rabbis said the Shekinah was present wherever 10 men were gathered in prayer. WHy Not? |
Yep, the "glory cloud" is seen in several OT contexts. No doubt about it. It was the real thing.
The question was is they any NT support for that to carry over to us today? An em "bright lights" you referenced, BJ, to equate em with the OT glory cloud, is some mighty slick hermeneutics............so slick you gonna fall down on at end result. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/16/17 6:43 pm
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'Shekinah' does not show up in the Bible. It is used in later Jewish literature. Another word that uses the same trilateral root shows up in the Old Testament.
'Kavod', translated 'glory' is another relevant word.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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1/16/17 7:13 pm
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