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Resident Skeptic |
| Quote: | | I've read David K Bernards books on oneness theology. Now that's cherry picking and confusing. If that comes across as snarky, oh well. |
Are you sure you had not made up your mind before you read it? |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 7:02 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quote: | | When you can satisfactorily explain why God sits on one throne...and His Son sits on another |
I don't believe I've seen this in scripture. In fact I've seen the opposite.
| Quote: | 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. (Rev. 22:3-4)
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God and the Lamb have one throne and one face. It refers to "HIS" servants, not "their servants".
Now none of this should be hard for Trinitarians if you believe that God is one being, a person (if you will).
How about this?.....
Then in Revelation 21:6-7 the Alpha and Omega says this......
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5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. |
So we are sons of the Alpha and Omega, which makes Him our FATHER.
And notice at the very end of all things how many are sitting on the throne. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 7:08 pm
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p5harri |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I've read David K Bernards books on oneness theology. Now that's cherry picking and confusing. If that comes across as snarky, oh well. |
Are you sure you had not made up your mind before you read it? |
Actually. No. I was curious and had attended a UPC church I honestly liked.
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1702
3/19/12 7:16 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| p5harri wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I've read David K Bernards books on oneness theology. Now that's cherry picking and confusing. If that comes across as snarky, oh well. |
Are you sure you had not made up your mind before you read it? |
Actually. No. I was curious and had attended a UPC church I honestly liked. |
Look, I didn't agree with every point in that book either. But are you going to tell me with a straight face that you didn't read anything in that book that made you reconsider some things you'd always been taught? |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 7:19 pm
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p5harri |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | p5harri wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | I've read David K Bernards books on oneness theology. Now that's cherry picking and confusing. If that comes across as snarky, oh well. |
Are you sure you had not made up your mind before you read it? |
Actually. No. I was curious and had attended a UPC church I honestly liked. |
Look, I didn't agree with every point in that book either. But are you going to tell me with a straight face that you didn't read anything in that book that made you reconsider some things you'd always been taught? |
Heres the crux of the matter. Trinitarians get accused of having a preconceived idea when studying.
While reading his book the feeling I got was that he was trying to prove a preconceived idea as well.
Yes there were some things to think about but nothing earth shattering.
But I also still don't consider the trinity a deal breaker in doctrine.
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1702
3/19/12 7:24 pm
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| Resident Skeptic... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | | To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. |
Actually, I was talking about sitting on the RIGHT HAND of the One Who sat on the throne, but since you mentioned it, I decided to look around a bit. I'm not sure if the above suffices, but it does have some indications of the same.
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Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. |
I think the above indicates that the Lamb and HIM that sat upon the throne are distinct. Yes, Oneness can get around this, but it leaves questions.
As for trinitarians, it clearly creates problems...since the one sitting on the throne IS God. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/19/12 7:25 pm
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Bro Bob |
Acts 7:
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
That the Holy Ghost (3rd person) revealed two personalities, abiding simultaneously right next to each other just flat slams the door shut for a simple mind like mine.
The ONLY question is whether or not Jesus is God, or better put, part of the godhead.
Denying the deity of Christ is a dangerous thing. It means you don't believe him. Even atheists know that he lived. Even Muslims believe he was sent from God.
It isn't enough. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/19/12 7:40 pm
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| Re: Resident Skeptic... |
Resident Skeptic |
| FloridaForever wrote: | | Quote: | | To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. |
Actually, I was talking about sitting on the RIGHT HAND of the One Who sat on the throne, but since you mentioned it, I decided to look around a bit. I'm not sure if the above suffices, but it does have some indications of the same.
| Quote: |
Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. |
I think the above indicates that the Lamb and HIM that sat upon the throne are distinct. Yes, Oneness can get around this, but it leaves questions.
As for trinitarians, it clearly creates problems...since the one sitting on the throne IS God. |
I find interesting that the Lamb "appeared" in the "center of the throne" of God himself.....
| Quote: | | 6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne |
But there is much figurative language here of course. BTW, I'd encourage you to do a study on the term "right hand of God". Many Trinitarian scholars do not believe this is referring to physical positioning at all. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 7:42 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Bro Bob wrote: | Acts 7:
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
That the Holy Ghost (3rd person) revealed two personalities, abiding simultaneously right next to each other just flat slams the door shut for a simple mind like mine.
The ONLY question is whether or not Jesus is God, or better put, part of the godhead.
Denying the deity of Christ is a dangerous thing. It means you don't believe him. Even atheists know that he lived. Even Muslims believe he was sent from God.
It isn't enough. |
So God has a literal right hand? Have you never studied this? It is not referring to a geographical location. Even Trinitarian scholars believe this. Furthermore, Stephen did not say that he saw "God the Father and God the Son". Rather, he saw "the Son of MAN"....
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“I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” |
He did not refer to two entities in the slightest. He saw a person, and then referred to a position of authority that person was standing in. In fact, he did not mention seeing God at all until it was said of him.....
| Quote: | 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
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His only reference to the person of God was when he called out to Jesus Christ, because he saw no other God than him. He saw the "glory of God", he mentioned the "right hand of God", then he called on the only physical manifestation of the person of God that he saw, the Lord Jesus. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 7:54 pm
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| Bro. Bob... |
FloridaForever |
I do not at all deny the deity of Christ. You cannot NOT be deity when God is your LITERAL Father.
What I am at odds with--though I stand open to clear scriptural correction--is that God is not a person, but PERSONS.
It is my belief that Jesus, being the Son of God, can be both divine/deity...and yet not be the actual person we have called God throughout the OT, and even in Jesus' own ministry. There is simply no other way to explain why the resurrected Lord said that He was ascending to HIS (His own) God. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/19/12 8:13 pm
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Bro Bob |
I am flabbergasted. Ought to make you smile Daniel, I know you are lurking.
How many permutations of this thing are there?
It's like herding cats.
But I owe you some answers:
So God has a literal right hand? Yes. If his nose is pointed north it will be attached to the arm on the east.
Have you never studied this? Yes. Obviously not to the point where Stephen says, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." and he is asking this of Jesus, but when Jesus, hanging on the cross says it, he is asking it of himself. And if you think this confuses me, I don't get that thing in the Garden of Gethsemane at all. "Self, it it be thy will, don't let this happen to me, um, I mean to you, um, you know what I mean."
It is not referring to a geographical location. You mean he didn't tell us he saw Jesus here? Latitude: 35-10'54'' N Longitude: 084-52'12'' W
Even Trinitarian scholars believe this. I don't think any two of us believe the same thing. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/19/12 8:22 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Bro Bob wrote: | I am flabbergasted. Ought to make you smile Daniel, I know you are lurking.
How many permutations of this thing are there?
It's like herding cats.
But I owe you some answers:
So God has a literal right hand? Yes. If his nose is pointed north it will be attached to the arm on the east.
Have you never studied this? Yes. Obviously not to the point where Stephen says, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." and he is asking this of Jesus, but when Jesus, hanging on the cross says it, he is asking it of himself. And if you think this confuses me, I don't get that thing in the Garden of Gethsemane at all. "Self, it it be thy will, don't let this happen to me, um, I mean to you, um, you know what I mean."
It is not referring to a geographical location. You mean he didn't tell us he saw Jesus here? Latitude: 35-10'54'' N Longitude: 084-52'12'' W
Even Trinitarian scholars believe this. I don't think any two of us believe the same thing. |
You and I both believe in one BEING who is Jehovah, correct? I don't accuse Trinitarians believe in three Gods. So I'm sorry to tell you Bob, but you have the same "problem" that I do. You have God praying to himself. You can try to punch the "persons" button all you want, but you have a being who has fellowship with himself. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 8:29 pm
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Bro Bob |
I believe in one God.
I believe he continuously exists in three beings: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. I believe they talk to each other. I believe they make requests of each other. I believe there has never been a time when all three did not co-exist, and yet one is described as the SON of the other, and time-lines being what they are, this is impossible.
Though any of the three have the same power to appear in various forms, and can be a physical being that you can see and touch, in that same form they can walk right out of a crowd unseen, and appear to people who know them, yet not be recognized.
Is my mind open to a wide variety of possibilities? I think it is.
I believe God can be here with me right now and be with you where you are right now. (Not the tough part.)
But I also believe he can be with me ten years from now, RIGHT NOW, and be with you ten years ago, RIGHT NOW.
Frankly, comprehending him (one God) existing eternally in three forms (all of whom are God) at the same time is not that tough for me. Comprehending the three of them, or any one of them transcending both space AND TIME, now that gets my wheels spinning.
Last edited by Bro Bob on 3/19/12 8:57 pm; edited 3 times in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/19/12 8:45 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quote: |
Frankly, comprehending him (one God) existing eternally in three forms (all of whom are God) at the same time is not that tough for me. |
Welcome to the ranks of Oneness Pentecostalism. We're glad to have you!  Well, your getting closer anyway. But any way you slice it, you have a God who has fellowship with himself. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 8:50 pm
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Bro Bob |
Give it whatever name you wish.
There has never been a time when all three did not exist. There will never be a time when they don't all three exist. They are not identical in personality, nor authority.
Did I just get kicked out of the club? |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/19/12 8:55 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Bro Bob wrote: | Give it whatever name you wish.
There has never been a time when all three did not exist. There will never be a time when they don't all three exist. They are not identical in personality, nor authority.
Did I just get kicked out of the club? |
How does a "son" eternally exist? How is the Spirit of God different from the God who is spirit? Sorry, it is not in the book. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 8:58 pm
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Bro Bob |
How does a "son" eternally exist?
That is a great question. Are you saying Jesus has a Heavenly birthday? |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
3/19/12 9:05 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Bro Bob wrote: | How does a "son" eternally exist?
That is a great question. Are you saying Jesus has a Heavenly birthday? |
Funny as a crutch. No, I'm saying that there was no eternal Son co-existing with two other persons in eternity past. But of course, we both know our differences. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/19/12 9:09 pm
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| Re: Wyatt... |
Quiet Wyatt |
| FloridaForever wrote: | | Quote: | | LoL. What an ignorant statement. You certainly spout nothing BUT pure nonsense whenever this issue is brought up. For someone as intelligent as you seem to be, you certainly exhibit nothing but prejudice when it comes to this subject. |
Wyatt, it is not "prejudice." It is the continuous stream of questions and complexities that arise from trying to hold the scriptures on one hand and the doctrine of the trinity on the other.
I got tired of getting "explanations" that seemed like nothing more than excuses. I saw "trinitarians" fall all over themselves about "Let US make man...," then conveniently ignore the hundreds of other scriptures where God is a HE, HIM, HIS, and I.
I got tired of trying to claim that the "The Lord, HE is God" on one hand, and then claim that God is not really a HE at all, but a THEY.
If that's prejudice, sign me up. I want that TRUTH. And the doctrine of the trinity, as the doctrine of oneness, has too many issues, over and over, to allow for the current formulation of the trinity.
So, get your shorts in a knot if you must, but that's how I see it. And I cannot help if it bothers you, but I reckon I'll speak my mind on the matter. |
No problem with you speaking your mind. Big problem with your hypocritical accusations of trinitarians as prejudiced on the issue, when your own prejudice IS as plain as the nose on your face. Then you have the audacity to act as if no one but you really understands the issue, that trinitarians are really just presupposing the trinity upon the Scriptures, when in fact trinitarians like myself and many others are genuinely attempting to explain the Scriptures and find the Scriptures do in fact present a trinitarian view of God. But because you already have ruled out the trinity in your mind, trinitarians somehow must just be biased. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/20/12 5:26 am
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | | No problem with you speaking your mind. Big problem with your hypocritical accusations of trinitarians as prejudiced on the issue, when your own prejudice IS as plain as the nose on your face. Then you have the audacity to act as if no one but you really understands the issue, that trinitarians are really just presupposing the trinity upon the Scriptures, when in fact trinitarians like myself and many others are genuinely attempting to explain the Scriptures and find the Scriptures do in fact present a trinitarian view of God. But because you already have ruled out the trinity in your mind, trinitarians somehow must just be biased. |
Wyatt, a person who reads of the baptism of Jesus would NOT fairly conclude that this represented the three persons of the Godhead...UNLESS they had already concluded that there were three persons in the Godhead.
I've seen this same passage presented a number of times as "evidence" for the trinity. ????? ONLY, ONLY, ONLY if you have already decided that the One God is actually three persons would you take that as evidence! Otherwise, you would take it at face value: That GOD has a SON, and that HOLY SPIRIT descended upon the SON.
That simple. You would not logically conclude that, hey, there is one God and He is comprised of three separate persons.
So, yes, I do see a lot of presupposition in the arguments of trinitarians. That is, because they have been told there is a trinity, they see the trinity in scriptures that would not, without that planted thought, have led them to such a conclusion.
I have not ruled out that trinity. I DO hold that there are three beings that can be rightfully called God: The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. BUT I also claim that only one of them, the Father, can be called the PERSON of God.
God is ONE PERSON. Just as I am one person, YET my son, or my clone, could also be called me in a very real sense. But no matter what, they are not the PERSON of me.
Same with Jesus, I contend. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/20/12 8:33 am
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