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What if Reformed Theology is right? |
Resident Skeptic |
Let's say we get to Heaven and we discover Calvin had it right. Will that bother you? Will you be angry that you are in Heaven because God by his grace regenerated you with his Spirit so you could repent and turn to Christ, because you were one of the elect? Will you consider God to be unjust because it turned out that unsaved friend or loved one you prayed so hard for could not be saved because they were not of the elect?
Panic not. I have not embraced this view. I do, however, have respect for many who do hold to this view.
I'd like to hear some thoughts from those on Actscelerate on this topic. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 10/14/15 8:03 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
I cannot buy that before the beginning of time, God chose who would go to Heaven and who would go to hell. I sat under a pastor who was a strong Calvinist and learned a good bit from him about the subject. That is when I came up with my saying: It makes more sense that God gave them free will to believe in predestination than God predestined me to believe in free will.
I cannot go with babies, who would not have come to Him based on predestination, going to hell.
There are lots of verses that support predestination. My answer is that both predestination and free will occur. Paul was predestined, IMHO, for example. John 3:16 says it all and I believe that every person has the ability to become a believer in Christ. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 10/14/15 8:18 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
If when I got to heaven, I were to find that Calvin was correct, I suppose the fact that I arrived there would mean I had had no choice but to worship and serve Him.
The deity posited by Calvin would be worthy of fear and respect, but not love. Indeed, love itself is utterly meaningless if Calvin's theology is true. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 10/14/15 10:09 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | If when I got to heaven, I were to find that Calvin was correct, I suppose the fact that I arrived there would mean I had had no choice but to worship and serve Him.
The deity posited by Calvin would be worthy of fear and respect, but not love. Indeed, love itself is utterly meaningless if Calvin's theology is true. |
Of course they would reply that God loved YOU so much that he called you unto salvation. etc _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 10/15/15 3:12 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Love must be chosen. Unless we redefine it somehow to mean coercion. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 10/15/15 6:20 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
If Calvin is right, does that mean only whites get in?
And since Calvin is right, does that mean RS wouldn't be there anyway since he didn't totally believe like Calvin and should have been burned at the stake in this present life? _________________ Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 10/15/15 6:47 am
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Just the Idea That... |
FG Minister |
Just the idea that God would create some people (Calvinists call them reprobates) who are destined to go to Hell, is anathema to me. He creates them, causes them to sin, does not give them a way to repent, then throws them into Hell to punish them for something He caused them to do! And they have the audacity to say that this God is a God of love. Sorry - that's hate on any scale; especially when you let others find a way out. |
Acts-celerater Posts: 875 10/15/15 7:30 am
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Re: Just the Idea That... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
FG Minister wrote: | the idea that God would create some people (Calvinists call them reprobates) who are destined to go to Hell, is anathema to me. He creates them, causes them to sin, does not give them a way to repent, then throws them into Hell to punish them for something He caused them to do! And they have the audacity to say that this God is a God of love. |
Such an idea is repulsive to the Imago Dei within us. God's attribute of "justice" eliminates such a notion. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 10/15/15 8:50 am
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John Jett |
I know some really good kids who's dad was dabbling in Calvinism, then died at an early age, so now they have latched on to it more out of honoring him I think, then out of their own thinking. My sons love these kids, and will win every single argument with them in classroom or outside, but they are intractable. I think they approach it out of fear and some measure of pride as well. I feel very sorry for them. I don't think it will cost them their soul since they obviously believe in Christ for their salvation, but it will cause confusion among those that they love and children they raise (not all of whom can be elect, so I wonder if they will tell them the bad news that some of them will be going to hell).
But to the OP, I really don't see that happening at all. But IF it did, I'd be thrilled to be there either way of course |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 10/15/15 9:22 am
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Re: Just the Idea That... |
Dave Dorsey |
Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Such an idea is repulsive to the Imago Dei within us. God's attribute of "justice" eliminates such a notion. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 10/15/15 9:57 am
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Da Sheik |
Just remember there is a distinction between predestination and what they refer to as "double predestination" |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1865 10/15/15 10:07 am
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Re: Just the Idea That... |
Methocostal |
Very well said. I don't know how one could say "God is Love" under that situation. It seems totally wrong that God would do such a thing.
On the other hand, I also don't understand since I think we agree, that God already knows who will make it to heaven, why he ever created the ones going to hell in the first place. Perhaps I am restating the predestined theory and don't realize it
FG Minister wrote: | Just the idea that God would create some people (Calvinists call them reprobates) who are destined to go to Hell, is anathema to me. He creates them, causes them to sin, does not give them a way to repent, then throws them into Hell to punish them for something He caused them to do! And they have the audacity to say that this God is a God of love. Sorry - that's hate on any scale; especially when you let others find a way out. |
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Friendly Face Posts: 496 10/15/15 11:23 am
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Re: Just the Idea That... |
Resident Skeptic |
Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | FG Minister wrote: | the idea that God would create some people (Calvinists call them reprobates) who are destined to go to Hell, is anathema to me. He creates them, causes them to sin, does not give them a way to repent, then throws them into Hell to punish them for something He caused them to do! And they have the audacity to say that this God is a God of love. |
Such an idea is repulsive to the Imago Dei within us. God's attribute of "justice" eliminates such a notion. |
I'm not sure you and OTCP are being accurate in your description of Calvinism.
But I will say this...
God would be justified in sending all of us to Hell. An injustice happens every time someone goes to Heaven. Justice demands they go to Hell. God did not give us justice, he gave us mercy.
If there are six people in a room and God chooses that 3 should be his elect and find salvation and rejects the other three, no injustice is done by God. The three that go to hell get justice. The three chosen to be part of the elect get mercy. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 10/16/15 5:04 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
...that He might be just, and the justifier of him that has faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:26
While it is true we all deserve nothing but damnation, Grace and mercy are not inconsistent with justice. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 10/16/15 6:25 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
...that He might be just, and the justifier of him that has faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:26
While it is true we all deserve nothing but damnation, Grace and mercy are not inconsistent with justice. |
I am only speaking in a very technical sense. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 10/17/15 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 10/16/15 6:34 pm
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Re: Just the Idea That... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
Resident Skeptic wrote: | I'm not sure you and OTCP are being accurate in your description of Calvinism...If there are six people in a room and God chooses that 3 should be his elect and find salvation and rejects the other three, no injustice is done by God. The three that go to hell get justice. The three chosen to be part of the elect get mercy. |
RS, love ya son, but I disagree. The ole timer knows his Calvinism (I can smell a TULIP a half a mile away).
If 6 fellers is in a room, all 6 of em was born in sin.
All 6 of em is lost.
None of the 6 can save their own hide.
All a the 6 need a savior.
Now, if the God presented in the Bible, whose nature/attributes reveal him to be just, an he arbitrarily offers 3 of the 6 grace to be saved, but the other 3 he condemns to hell--based not on His foreknowledge of how the 6 will respond to the gospel, but based only on His desire to see 3 in heaven an 3 in hell--God IS NOT acting according to his attribute of justice. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 10/16/15 9:57 pm
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It has been predestined that . . . |
sonofasoldier |
I have predestined that anyone who visits my church for the 1st time will receive a free lunch invitation (if they choose to accept) and that those who do not visit my church will not receive a free lunch invitation. While I have predestined, predetermined, pre-ordained it, folks have the free will to choose.
No supralapsarianism here. |
Acts-celerater Posts: 593 10/16/15 10:26 pm
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Re: It has been predestined that . . . |
Old Time Country Preacher |
sonofasoldier wrote: |
No supralapsarianism here. |
My goodness, sonofasoldier, son, is at really a word? I didn't know if you had misspelled the word or was typin in tongues. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 10/17/15 1:44 am
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Re: Just the Idea That... |
Resident Skeptic |
Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Resident Skeptic wrote: | I'm not sure you and OTCP are being accurate in your description of Calvinism...If there are six people in a room and God chooses that 3 should be his elect and find salvation and rejects the other three, no injustice is done by God. The three that go to hell get justice. The three chosen to be part of the elect get mercy. |
RS, love ya son, but I disagree. The ole timer knows his Calvinism (I can smell a TULIP a half a mile away).
If 6 fellers is in a room, all 6 of em was born in sin.
All 6 of em is lost.
None of the 6 can save their own hide.
All a the 6 need a savior.
Now, if the God presented in the Bible, whose nature/attributes reveal him to be just, an he arbitrarily offers 3 of the 6 grace to be saved, but the other 3 he condemns to hell--based not on His foreknowledge of how the 6 will respond to the gospel, but based only on His desire to see 3 in heaven an 3 in hell--God IS NOT acting according to his attribute of justice. |
Justice would be sending them all to hell. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 10/17/15 3:22 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Even great Reformed theologians like Jonathan Edwards distinguished between retributive justice (what the sinner deserves) and public justice, that which aims at benevolence, the highest good of all. If sinful man can be redeemed and renewed into the original predestined/purposed image of God in Christ, by means of a worthy substitutionary sacrifice for the execution of the penalty upon the sinner, in kindness leading him to repentance and faith, without making a mockery of the King and his rigteous law by simply pardoning unconditionally, this form of justice (public) is far better, all things considered, than simply meting out retribution. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 10/17/15 4:42 pm
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