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 Does God "hate divorce"? (L) |
bonnie knox |
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Cojak |
Good thoughts there, and much I agree with.
I HATE DIVORCE myself. Never thought I would see it in my family, BUT I have.
I Hate divorce, but I have been glad to see one at times.
We have had the problem for years. Aaron has taken a drastic position (LOL) here to make the point. I often wonder how many UNPARDONABLE SINS there are. Divorce does seem to be one.... 
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Last edited by Cojak on 12/12/16 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 24285
12/12/16 10:17 am
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| Re: Does God "hate divorce"? (L) |
Quiet Wyatt |
Very good article!
Several years ago, at a Community Chaplaincy training seminar I was attending, I asked one of the trainers why the Church of God didn't allow for divorce in cases of abuse. His curt reply was, "It's not scriptural." I was stunned. Here was a very well qualified and trained professional military chaplain with an earned MDiv and DMin, who spoke eloquently and powerfully in the training sessions of the great need for kindness, love, compassion and mercy in our ministries, and rightly so. But for whatever reason, he believed the abused party did not have scriptural justification for divorce. It has been about 10 years since, so perhaps his heart and mind has changed somewhat. |
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Posts: 12817
12/12/16 11:31 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| How could God hate divorce and yet lead so many folk in ministry to leave their spouse, get a new spouse (or 3, or 4, or 5...), an lead em straight into a new season? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/12/16 11:56 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | How could God hate divorce and yet lead so many folk in ministry to leave their spouse, get a new spouse (or 3, or 4, or 5...), an lead em straight into a new season? |
That's like he is truly in favor of it... especially if the minister commits adultery - and to get a clean slate, he divorces the wife.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
12/12/16 1:07 pm
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bonnie knox |
Git all at air software ya been blessed with an help us cipher out tha meanin a that verse in Malachi.
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | How could God hate divorce and yet lead so many folk in ministry to leave their spouse, get a new spouse (or 3, or 4, or 5...), an lead em straight into a new season? |
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Posts: 14803
12/12/16 1:54 pm
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| God got a divorce, too, you know.... |
Aaron Scott |
(Jeremiah 3:8 KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
To HATE divorce is not the same as saying that it is not permitted in certain instances. For instance, I hate the fact that cows are killed...and yet, to feed our families, most of us still allow for the killing of cows. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
12/12/16 5:26 pm
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| Re: God got a divorce, too, you know.... |
Cojak |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | (Jeremiah 3:8 KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
To HATE divorce is not the same as saying that it is not permitted in certain instances. For instance, I hate the fact that cows are killed...and yet, to feed our families, most of us still allow for the killing of cows. |
Simply, well stated!  
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
12/12/16 7:06 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Git all at air software ya been blessed with an help us cipher out tha meanin a that verse in Malachi. |
Here is the best I can do, Miss Bonnie.
The punctuation of RSV is very strange at this point: the whole of verse 16 is enclosed in quotation marks, including the quotation verbs of speaking. It seems likely that this is a printing error, since the quotation marks are removed in NRSV. This Handbook will ignore the quotation marks.
For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel: As the RSV footnote indicates, the Hebrew text has “he hates.” A large majority of versions and commentaries change the vowels of the traditional Hebrew to make it read I hate. NKJV produces the same effect without changing the vowels by rendering “For the Lord God of Israel says that He hates divorce” (similarly KJV). For many translators the choice between direct and indirect quotation will be a matter of style rather than of a change in the text, and of course, both options are translationally valid.
The real problem is that the Hebrew words behind For I hate divorce can be taken to mean almost the opposite of what RSV says. They could mean “If someone hates, let him divorce,” with the unstated object being “his wife” in both clauses (as brought out in HOTTP, Septuagint, Vulgate, Luther, NEB/REB). If the words carry this meaning, they could be seen as contradicting the general thrust of Malachi’s argument through this section. On the other hand, if the rendering of RSV and most other versions is followed, Malachi may appear to be contradicting the legislation about divorce in Deut 24:1–4. We should observe, however, (1) that for the Lord to disapprove of divorce is not the same thing as forbidding it, and (2) that Deut 24:1–4 does not encourage divorce but rather sets restrictions on how it may take place. The two passages are therefore not necessarily in conflict.
Most translators will probably follow the interpretation found in RSV and TEV. But they should note that even versions which accept the interpretation “If someone hates, let him divorce” do not treat this sentence as a charter for casual divorce. This becomes clear when those versions take the following clause to express the unfavorable result of such conduct. See the comments below.
Some languages may lack a noun for divorce. In such cases there will usually be a verbal expression that translators can use, such as “I hate it when husbands send their wives away” or “… separate from their wives.”
The words says the LORD the God of Israel are found only here in Malachi. As an expression unique in this book, it presumably had some purpose in the eyes of the prophet, even if it is not clear to us what that purpose was. (For a suggestion, see the Additional Note on the structure of verses 13–16 below.) Accordingly, translators should preserve the expression, rather than run it in with the second quotation formula says the LORD of hosts, as do MFT, NEB, CEV, FRCL, and GECL.
And covering one’s garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts: The meaning of these words is uncertain. Both the internal structure of the clause, and its relationship with the previous clause are open to different interpretations. If the words carry their ordinary meaning, then covering one’s garment with violence probably carries the idea of getting blood on a garment when making a violent attack on someone else. This would be a second object of the verb hate in the previous clause, and the effect of the whole sentence would be to say that divorce is as bad as attacking innocent victims. Those versions that, like the Vulgate, translate the previous clause as “if you hate your wife, divorce her” treat this clause as the unwelcome result of such action and say, “however, iniquity will cover your garment.”
Some scholars and translators treat the word garment as a symbolic reference to a wife. They base this view on Ruth 3:9 and Ezek 16:8, where spreading a garment over a woman is a symbol of marriage. Some scholars even quote a passage in the Koran which refers to husband and wife as garments to each other (Sura 2.183), but this is hardly relevant as it comes from a period over a thousand years later than Malachi. If this view is accepted, then covering one’s garment with violence refers to a man behaving unjustly toward his wife. This view is represented in REB, which has “If a man divorces or puts away his wife … he overwhelms her with cruelty.”
It is also possible (though much less likely) that the words can mean “cover violence with his garment” (compare KJV). This possibility is found in NJB with “I hate divorce … and people concealing their cruelty under a cloak.” Other renderings are “I detest divorce … and covering oneself with lawlessness as with a garment” (NJPSV) and “I hate divorce … and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment” (NIV). These both depend on adding one letter to the traditional Hebrew text. Neither rendering however succeeds in showing what the relationship is between divorce and violence, so they cannot be recommended.
The formula says the LORD of hosts serves to close and emphasize the climax of the paragraph of verses 13–16.
So take heed to yourselves is the same expression as occurred in verse 15. See the comments there. And do not be faithless: This is a partial repetition of the words at the end of verse 15. The phrase “to the wife of [your] youth” is not repeated, so it may be that here the command refers to wider social relationships and not just marriage. If so, it could be taking up the first and very general occurrence of the term faithless in verse 10, and forming an inclusion for the whole section. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/12/16 7:34 pm
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| Re: God got a divorce, too, you know.... |
bonnie knox |
Yes, I know that, but what about the question of whether the verse in Malachi says or doesn't say that God hates divorce?
| Aaron Scott wrote: | (Jeremiah 3:8 KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
To HATE divorce is not the same as saying that it is not permitted in certain instances. For instance, I hate the fact that cows are killed...and yet, to feed our families, most of us still allow for the killing of cows. |
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Posts: 14803
12/12/16 8:09 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Ole Timer, thanks for sharing the post above. |
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Posts: 14803
12/12/16 8:10 pm
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| Re: God got a divorce, too, you know.... |
c6thplayer1 |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Yes, I know that, but what about the question of whether the verse in Malachi says or doesn't say that God hates divorce?
| Aaron Scott wrote: | (Jeremiah 3:8 KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
To HATE divorce is not the same as saying that it is not permitted in certain instances. For instance, I hate the fact that cows are killed...and yet, to feed our families, most of us still allow for the killing of cows. |
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This is why I stck to the KJV;
Malachi 2:16King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
12/12/16 9:56 pm
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| Re: God got a divorce, too, you know.... |
Clint Wills |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | (Jeremiah 3:8 KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
To HATE divorce is not the same as saying that it is not permitted in certain instances. For instance, I hate the fact that cows are killed...and yet, to feed our families, most of us still allow for the killing of cows. |
This is good stuff!! I believe that God ALWAYS hates divorce!! Even when scripture allows for divorce, it is an allowance, not a preference. For starters, if anyone ever beat my daughter, she wouldn't have to divorce him...he'd be dead.
I think God also hates adultery and abuse. I don't think there are ever ideal circumstances surrounding a divorce, and I think THAT is what God hates. Either someone is just choosing to leave their spouse for no good reason at all, OR they are leaving with good reason - either way, someone got their eyes off God. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
12/13/16 6:49 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | For starters, if anyone ever beat my daughter, she wouldn't have to divorce him...he'd be dead. |
Are we back to "murder is better than divorce"? |
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Posts: 14803
12/13/16 7:23 pm
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bonnie knox |
| What do you tell a person who has long suffered abuse in marriage? That God hates divorce or that God hates abuse? |
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Posts: 14803
12/13/16 7:38 pm
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Link |
Getting divorce is not adultery. Adultery is an issue when people remarry under certain circumstances. The Bible does not say someone who was divorced because of abuse can remarry.
I noticed this on the website:
| Quote: | | a limbo which still brings tongue wagging from the church and leaves the victim vulnerable to a dangerous reconciliation if an unreformed abuser makes an outward show of reformation. |
Divorce doesn't stop wagging tongues. It doesn't stop reconciliation, either. As far as the US legal system goes, as I understand it, legal separation provides some legal protection in terms of taxes and things of that sort.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/14/16 11:02 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | The Bible does not say someone who was divorced because of abuse can remarry. |
That's your interpretation of Jesus' teachings when he was addressing the "every cause" discussion. It's interesting though, that you think God is more lenient about remarriage for a woman whose husband had a one night stand than for a woman who was beaten black and blue for years.
| Quote: | | Divorce doesn't stop wagging tongues. It doesn't stop reconciliation, either. |
You're right about divorce not stopping wagging tongues. Wagging tongues are like wildfires, and the folks in Tennessee could tell you a thing or two about that. But don't miss the author's point. There have been so many abused women who have been encouraged by the church to just try submitting more to an abusive husband. The church has discouraged those women from divorcing, that is why the author said the church is responsible for the tongue wagging when such a woman divorces. Also, I think you went right past what she was saying by "dangerous reconciliation." If you will look around, you will likely see people who behave in abusive ways who claim to have repented. They make a nice public show, maybe cry some crocodile tears. There will be gullible church people who make a big to-do about FORGIVENESS (as long as the one promoting FORGIVENESS wasn't the one who experienced the pain in the first place). The gullible church people will also engage in a little sin leveling saying we must forgive this wife abuser or pedophile because we ourselves spoke a harsh word to an inept sales clerk last week, iow, we are ALL sinners. Then the church wants the abused woman to reconcile to the person who has only made a show of repentance but who inside is the same unchanged person. That is what the author means by "dangerous reconciliation." Perhaps you missed the adjective "dangerous." |
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Posts: 14803
12/15/16 8:22 am
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Link |
Bonnie,
I don't see where Jesus addressed a woman divorcing her husband at all except to forbid it in Mark, along with a man doing the same. It's not addressed in the passage with the 'exception clause.'
My point about divorce not preventing reconciliation is that the author's comment made it seem like divorce would not allow a reconciliation, but separation would. Separation allows for legal separation of taxes, etc. without legal remarriage.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/17/16 3:26 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
It might be illuminating to know what God thinks of marriage - to understand what is meant in the passages about divorce.
God was "forced" to divorce.
Folks are "forced" the same way - especially the "weaker" spouse in an abusive relationship.
As for remarriage - in a truly abusive marriage - remarriage is the last thing on their mind. Just surviving is.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
12/17/16 4:53 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | My point about divorce not preventing reconciliation is that the author's comment made it seem like divorce would not allow a reconciliation, but separation would. Separation allows for legal separation of taxes, etc. without legal remarriage. |
Link, I believe what the author is getting at is that sometimes the church will try to make a woman who has been abused reconcile with her husband (in other words return to the marriage with him) rather than moving on with her life (and perhaps finding a new husband). The author is saying this is dangerous because usually the abuser makes a show of repentance without actually changing his abusive patterns.
Once the woman has remarried, it is less often that the church demands she go back to her first husband, i.e., the dangerous situation (although there are some who seem to think that is what scripture requires or else that she forever stop having sex with her current husband). |
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Posts: 14803
12/17/16 11:13 am
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