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 Did Jesus Come So That We Might Live Large? |
Quiet Wyatt |
Was Christ sent into the world to make us rich financially? By 'rich' I mean living in multimillion-dollar mansions, owning luxury cars, having the finest clothes, etc.?
Did the New Testament apostolic church teach anything like the 'prosperity gospel'? Can you imagine Paul using donations to his ministry to buy a great big mansion here on earth, or to buy a fleet of Bentleys, Mercedes, and Rolls Royces, and so forth? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/28/14 5:01 pm
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LonghornFan |
According to Lifeway Research, over 80% of protestant Christian churches have less than 80 people that attend on a regular basis. There are far more bi-vocational pastors than full time pastors.
I have never met a pastor that lived in a mansion or that drove a Bentley. I have met several that drove a car that needed new tires and lived in a house that they didn't even own.
I understand that there are those who live in excess. However, they make up less than 1% of those who are in ministry. God will take care of those who abuse.
My fear is that when we highlight the small minority who are hirelings, that we are being disingenuous to the many men and women who sacrifice so much to fulfill the calling on their life.
So, rather than focus on the few negative situations, I think I will choose to bless a pastor somewhere that needs some extra grocery money. Thanks for the reminder. I am writing the check now, and know just who to send it to. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
5/28/14 5:30 pm
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bradfreeman |
He came so we would have abundant life. A life flowing with milk and honey...the good life on every level!
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/28/14 5:32 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | He came so we would have abundant life. A life flowing with milk and honey...the good life on every level! |
Let me answer like casey/brad usually answer me.
Brad, you didn't answer Wyatts question. Did Jesus leave the splendor of heaven, come to the earth, suffer and die, to.....make us rich financially? By 'rich' I mean living in multimillion-dollar mansions, owning luxury cars, having the finest clothes, etc.? Did the New Testament apostolic church teach anything like the 'prosperity gospel'? Can you imagine Paul using donations to his ministry to buy a great big mansion here on earth, or to buy a fleet of Bentleys, Mercedes, and Rolls Royces, and so forth?
Let me answer Wyatts question. NO, Jesus DID NOT divest himself and become human to increase the personal coffers of every believer.
Excellent post, Wyatt. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/28/14 8:42 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| LonghornFan wrote: | My fear is that when we highlight the small minority who are hirelings, that we are being disingenuous to the many men and women who sacrifice so much to fulfill the calling on their life.
So, rather than focus on the few negative situations, I think I will choose to bless a pastor somewhere that needs some extra grocery money. Thanks for the reminder. I am writing the check now, and know just who to send it to. |
The problem, LF, is that the lifestyle an teachin of this "small minority" influence a large number a folk into thinkin they can do the same thing. Then, when it don't happen, confusion and disillusionment occur, often to the point of blaming God an walking away from the faith. So, exposin this "small minority" is essential in projectin a biblically balanced perspective. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/28/14 8:45 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | LonghornFan wrote: | My fear is that when we highlight the small minority who are hirelings, that we are being disingenuous to the many men and women who sacrifice so much to fulfill the calling on their life.
So, rather than focus on the few negative situations, I think I will choose to bless a pastor somewhere that needs some extra grocery money. Thanks for the reminder. I am writing the check now, and know just who to send it to. |
The problem, LF, is that the lifestyle an teachin of this "small minority" influence a large number a folk into thinkin they can do the same thing. Then, when it don't happen, confusion and disillusionment occur, often to the point of blaming God an walking away from the faith. So, exposin this "small minority" is essential in projectin a biblically balanced perspective. |
I think God allows this to test the hearts of his people.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/28/14 8:58 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Let me answer Wyatts question. NO, Jesus DID NOT divest himself and become human to increase the personal coffers of every believer.
Excellent post, Wyatt. |
I like you guys, but I'll stick with Paul on this one.
2 Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.
Rich - plouteo - to be rich, to have abundance of outward possessions
He wants us rich so that we can enjoy life and be generous to those in need. Our Shepherd takes good care of His sheep.
2 Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed ; 9 as it is written, "HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER." 10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness ; 11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.
Again, a theology of coping that shapes it's God around it's circumstances leaves people wondering if God wants things to change for the better. He does. He wants your family better. He wants your mind better. He wants your finances better. He wants your health better. He wants the world to look at His sheep and know that He is a good Shepherd.
Eph. 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
He wants the world to see His favor and kindness toward us. He wants it to show.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/29/14 8:10 am
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Randy Johnson |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Let me answer Wyatts question. NO, Jesus DID NOT divest himself and become human to increase the personal coffers of every believer.
Excellent post, Wyatt. |
I like you guys, but I'll stick with Paul on this one.
2 Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.
He wants us rich so that we can enjoy life and be generous to those in need. Our Shepherd takes good care of His sheep.
2 Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed ; 9 as it is written, "HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER." 10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness ; 11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.
Again, a theology of coping that shapes it's God around it's circumstances leaves people wondering if God wants things to change for the better. He does. He wants your family better. He wants your mind better. He wants your finances better. He wants your health better. He wants the world to look at His sheep and know that He is a good Shepherd.
Eph. 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
He wants the world to see His favor and kindness toward us. He wants it to show. |
But He doesn't accomplish all this through magic.
If your finances are going to get better, it's because you're going to be more disciplined in your management of money, spend less than you earn, and save and invest the rest.
If your mind is going to get better, then you are going to have to study, and put more knowledge in.
If your body is going to get better, you need to exercise and eat properly.
All of these things can be done without a relationship with God.
God doesn't do these things by magic, we do them by work and effort.
The answer is not the world seeing us as the best of what they envision themselves to be but cannot attain because have this special relationship with God that they don't have.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/29/14 8:16 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: |
Rich - plouteo - to be rich, to have abundance of outward possessions. |
Poor exegesis. Proper hermeneutics require the integration and assimilation of context. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/29/14 11:35 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | But He doesn't accomplish all this through magic. |
My man Randy is on to something here. Woffie theology can easily be equated to magic. Just wave the woffie magic wand (ie, speaking into existence) and it will appear. Only a child believes such. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/29/14 11:38 am
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bradfreeman |
There is a difference between the efforts of believers and the efforts of the world...the blessing. It is accessed by faith.
Gal. 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/29/14 12:11 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | There is a difference between the efforts of believers and the efforts of the world...the blessing. It is accessed by faith.
Gal. 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. |
Blessed via Abraham's offspring--Jesus Christ. The blessing is soteriological, not guaranteed materialism. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/29/14 12:15 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | There is a difference between the efforts of believers and the efforts of the world...the blessing. It is accessed by faith.
Gal. 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. |
Blessed via Abraham's offspring--Jesus Christ. The blessing is soteriological, not guaranteed materialism. |
We're blessed "with" Abraham. How was Abraham blessed soteriologically?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/29/14 1:23 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | There is a difference between the efforts of believers and the efforts of the world...the blessing. It is accessed by faith.
Gal. 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. |
Blessed via Abraham's offspring--Jesus Christ. The blessing is soteriological, not guaranteed materialism. |
We're blessed "with" Abraham. How was Abraham blessed soteriologically? |
By bein called outta Ur an follerin the Lord. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/29/14 2:20 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | There is a difference between the efforts of believers and the efforts of the world...the blessing. It is accessed by faith.
Gal. 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. |
Blessed via Abraham's offspring--Jesus Christ. The blessing is soteriological, not guaranteed materialism. |
We're blessed "with" Abraham. How was Abraham blessed soteriologically? |
By bein called outta Ur an follerin the Lord. |
Here is some of Abraham's soteriological blessing:
Gal. 13:2 Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver and in gold.
We are blessed with Abraham. God's desire is to empower us to be generous on every occasion.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/29/14 2:36 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | There is a difference between the efforts of believers and the efforts of the world...the blessing. It is accessed by faith.
Gal. 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. |
Blessed via Abraham's offspring--Jesus Christ. The blessing is soteriological, not guaranteed materialism. |
We're blessed "with" Abraham. How was Abraham blessed soteriologically? |
His faith was credit ed. As righteous ness
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/29/14 3:35 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | [Here is some of Abraham's soteriological blessing:
Gal. 13:2 Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver and in gold.
We are blessed with Abraham. God's desire is to empower us to be generous on every occasion. |
Brad, how much livestock you got? How much silver an gold (not money, stocks, etc), but how much silver an gold have you got? Son, ifn this is God's desire you oughtta have livestock, silver an gold. Stocks, bonds, currency, acreage, none a that counts, its gotta be livestock, silver an gold. How much ya got? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
5/29/14 6:52 pm
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| Re: Did Jesus Come So That We Might Live Large? |
Cojak |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Was Christ sent into the world to make us rich financially? By 'rich' I mean living in multimillion-dollar mansions, owning luxury cars, having the finest clothes, etc.?
Did the New Testament apostolic church teach anything like the 'prosperity gospel'? Can you imagine Paul using donations to his ministry to buy a great big mansion here on earth, or to buy a fleet of Bentleys, Mercedes, and Rolls Royces, and so forth? |
If so, someone never told Steven, John or the blessed folk who were fed to the lions (after our Lord departed). My daddy after serving our Lord over 50 yrs as pastor drew $275 a month from the COG ministerial Fund. he drove a car I gave him. BUT he lives in a mansion now, and has spoken to Jesus.
I hope I am that faithful.
If anyone is thinking mismanagement of funds, you can forget that, Dad was the most frugal. Saving what money he could to send to the mission field. He pastored limit churches but was conservative. Just to clear any questions up. He was a GIVER not a taker.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
5/29/14 10:16 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Brad, how much livestock you got? How much silver an gold (not money, stocks, etc), but how much silver an gold have you got? Son, ifn this is God's desire you oughtta have livestock, silver an gold. Stocks, bonds, currency, acreage, none a that counts, its gotta be livestock, silver an gold. How much ya got? |
Now this is a great argument. 
You can do better.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/30/14 10:43 am
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| Re: Did Jesus Come So That We Might Live Large? |
Link |
I read a post from a WOFer on another forum who thought that 'have life and have it more abundantly' meant having a lot of possessions. I never took the verse that way, but I can see how WOFers who emphasize prosperity might.
Jesus asked if the life wasn't more than meat and the body than rainment.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
5/31/14 11:50 pm
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