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 Although I do like the idea... |
W. Ray Williams |
of long-term pastors. I am more uncomfortable with "leaders for life" the higher they get in the espicopal structure. Maybe regional bishops, without a term limit, but an Executive Committe without a term limit......not sure i am there yet. Although there are great advantages...there are commensurate risks.
Changes in leadership allow new vision and ideas to grow and foster. Other than the potential for corruption, the biggest danger in "leaders for life" is stagnation of vision.
In local churches this can be a probelm, but is easier to recognize and rectify. At a national or international level it is harder to see and much harder to change.
I agree whole-heartedly that change needs to come and this conversation needs to happen on a much larger scale.
_________________
Pax,
Ray
Last edited by W. Ray Williams on 2/2/12 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
2/2/12 11:28 am
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| Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps |
Cojak |
| Jerry Lawson wrote: |
While I do share your frustration with this kind of problem in the Church of God, I do not share your view of the solution.
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Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.tv |
Very good comment.( the whole comment, no need to repeat the entire comment). 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
2/2/12 12:08 pm
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| Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps |
Dave Dorsey |
| Jerry Lawson wrote: | Brothers and Sisters, the hole in our boat is a LEADERSHIP hole. We keep making new rules and violating older ones in an effort to keep our heads above water, but what we really need is true, God-called, dedicated, unambitious leadership. We need state overseers that are called to ONE STATE for an lifetime. We need pastors who are called to ONE COMMUNITY for a lifetime. We need administrators who are called to serve ONE AREA of administration and not try to use it as a platform to become world famous.
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That's something the CoG does pretty well at the local church level but utterly fails at on the state/regional/national level. And I'm not impugning our leaders at all. I really think it's out of their hands. OUR SYSTEM HAS US HANDICAPPED. And the General Assembly is the only body that can fix this problem. |
Amen, amen and amen. We are getting ready to lose an astounding AB (Bishop Ronald Martin) in Delmarva because of this. Wherever he winds up, I'm sure they will be blessed. I'm sure we will be blessed by whoever comes in after him. But he has labored for four years in this area. Now he's got to pack all of it up and leave. Four years is scarcely enough to begin to answer God's vision for an area. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/2/12 2:19 pm
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| Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps |
W. Ray Williams |
| Quote: | | Amen, amen and amen. We are getting ready to lose an astounding AB (Bishop Ronald Martin) in Delmarva because of this. Wherever he winds up, I'm sure they will be blessed. I'm sure we will be blessed by whoever comes in after him. But he has labored for four years in this area. Now he's got to pack all of it up and leave. Four years is scarcely enough to begin to answer God's vision for an area. |
Dave,
I am also a DelMarVa-DC minister and this is my real name. Although I like Bishop Martin and have no axe to grind...what acheivement, vision, program or process has he brought that would warrant a longer tenure? He has been a good AB. I have no problems with him or his leadership, but was there a specific program that he or any other AB has brought to DelMarVa-DC in the past 25 years that has warranted an extended tenure.
We talk about planting churches and we have, under other AB's, tauted the planting of many new churches, but the number of active congregations in DelMarVa-DC is pretty much the same as it was 25 years ago. There is not a significant number of new members of the COG in this region, there is not a significant increase in finances. there is not a single area where we can point to significant increases in the building of the Kingdom of God.
Now that is not all the AB's fault. It is a burden equally shared by every pastor, minister and member of the COG. What have I done that has moved the cause of Christ forward in my sphere of influence? I fear far too little when I am honest with myself.
Again, please do not hear what i am not saying......I have no probelms with Bishop Martin. Should he be allowed to stay here for an extended tenure I would have no objection. I am not here to criticze him, in fact, the one area I would give him some credit for is working with congregations that were not paying the ToT in order to find some currency there.
In order for me to buy the idea of extended tenure for ABs I would want to see true innovation and visionary leadership to propel the Kingdom of God into the 21st Century with force. that stands for the ABs, the Executive Committee and all appointed offices.
_________________
Pax,
Ray |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
2/2/12 2:45 pm
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theElder |
We seem to have gotten off topic from what the original poster had to write about.
I challenged him to provide more specific information about his accusations.
His response finally was to say that he would provide more info in a pm if someone wrote him.
But when I did he provided nothing beyond what he had written in this thread.
So I am back to my original thoughts concerning these kinds of accusations:
"It is a lot of hot air with nothing whatsoever to enable anyone to know whether it is the truth or not!"
Yet, many jumped on the bandwagon lamenting how terrible it was and how the former pastor and AB were derelict in their responsibilities to the church and its membership.
As I previously wrote this kind of thing may have happened but I think folks ought to be requiring something more than an accusation before taking this kind of thing seriously and condemning leadership.
As SheepdogAndy wrote, "2.4 million with only 100 folks? What bank would do that?
That also was a great question but he didn't get an answer either!
I think I'll stick by my earlier conclusion: Perhaps this kind of thing explains why the original poster is called Looking For Friends. As far as I'm concerned he can keep looking! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1924
2/3/12 8:51 am
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| Elder |
Cojak |
I understand some reluctance. Mainly the poster had a good point.
FACT: Too many COG pastors have assisted (been the main thrust) of running up a debt at local churches and leaving it to the man following to try to pay off. Been there and saw that my friend.
I could fill in some names of two or three churches in NC that the same thing has happened to. They are in debt millions, and running 125-250 .
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
2/3/12 11:39 am
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| Thank you theElder |
Looking For Friends |
The Church of God is who underwrote the loan to begin with...and even loaned them more money through the Foundation. Though the church was under an unbearable debt, based on the recommendation of the State Overseer they gave them more money...even above the bank loan.
Know it all, arrogant, closed-minded elders have always been a source of tremendous discouragement in my life. You continue to pattern. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 536
2/7/12 12:20 am
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theElder |
If other Elders have been a discouragement in your life as you claim I have then perhaps you should take a closer look at yourself and how you come across.
What I have asked for is simply information to back up the accusations you made at the beginning of this thread.
You said you would provide more info if a pm was sent to you. I sent you a pm and you responded with nothing more than what you had previously posted in this thread.
I am far from arrogant or close-minded but I believe if someone makes an accusation I am entitled to more information to back up that accusation before I jump on the bankwagon condemning a pastor as you have!
You failed to provide anything beyond vague accusations which is very easy to do on a board such as this.
But I. for one, will not join in condemning someone based on these kinds of accusations.
If what you say is true you should have no problem naming the church and city at a minimum but you haven't even done that! If the pastor was as bad as you claim you shouldn't have a problem naming him as well so that another church wouldn't be as apt to get in the same situation as the one you claim to speak for.
You can try to play the victim in this but that doesn't work very well when you have been given multiple opportunities to provide more information and have failed to do so.
As far as I am concerned you can keep on Looking For Firends! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1924
2/7/12 11:18 am
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| Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps |
Dave Dorsey |
| W. Ray Williams wrote: | I am also a DelMarVa-DC minister and this is my real name. Although I like Bishop Martin and have no axe to grind...what acheivement, vision, program or process has he brought that would warrant a longer tenure? He has been a good AB. I have no problems with him or his leadership, but was there a specific program that he or any other AB has brought to DelMarVa-DC in the past 25 years that has warranted an extended tenure.
We talk about planting churches and we have, under other AB's, tauted the planting of many new churches, but the number of active congregations in DelMarVa-DC is pretty much the same as it was 25 years ago. There is not a significant number of new members of the COG in this region, there is not a significant increase in finances. there is not a single area where we can point to significant increases in the building of the Kingdom of God. |
Brother Williams,
I appreciate the tone and candor of your post. I cannot answer your question, however I believe my inability to answer your question supports Jerry's point regarding tenure. It takes time to institute long-lasting change, and if you know you're not going to be here long enough to do it, it makes sense that you would be limited in your commitments and focus only on the things you could see through to completion in the time that you had. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/7/12 1:16 pm
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