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 Is the Bible explicit in prescribing duties of a bishop? |
bonnie knox |
| I think we sometimes get caught up in a discussion of "offices" without acknowledging that scripture is, as Gordon Fee would term it, "[ambiguous]... with regard to church structures and ministries." Furthermore, do we approach the ambiguity with a determination to clarify it on our own terms, or do we err when we try to project our own advocacy onto topics about which scripture doesn't make clear definitions? |
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8/23/16 9:59 am
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| Re: Is the Bible explicit in prescribing duties of a bishop? |
Cojak |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | ...Furthermore, do we approach the ambiguity with a determination to clarify it on our own terms, or do we err when we try to project our own advocacy onto topics about which scripture doesn't make clear definitions? |
As I aged and traveled some (with exposure to more opinions), I realized (IMO) that the answer to that question is a big YES! 
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8/23/16 11:49 am
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| Bonnie |
brotherjames |
| Not sure what you mean as Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 both give us qualifications but specific duties are not spelled out except on Acts 6 for elders and deacons. The local church or national organization spells out the details specifically and even then it is ambiguous at best on some things. I subscribe to ephesians 4:11 personally. Ministers exist to equip (train) the body of Christ for the work of the ministry, not just do the work of the ministry (whatever that may entail). |
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Posts: 935
8/23/16 5:13 pm
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bonnie knox |
In the discussion of what women must be restricted from in the Church of God, some people are adamant that women may not be bishops, yet the Bible does not (as I can tell) prohibit women from doing anything a bishop would do. Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 has no prohibitive language that would prevent a woman from serving in the capacity of bishop. My question is if there are any duties that are biblically required of a bishop that a woman is restricted from.
Before anyone claims that the phrase "husband of one wife" eliminates women, let me say that the phrase is also used of deacons, and we know Phoebe was called a deacon. Also, let me post this as food for thought with respect to that phrase from Philip B. Payne:
Two of the most prominent complementarians acknowledge this phrase does not clearly exclude women. Douglas Moo acknowledges that this phrase need not exclude "unmarried men or females from the office . . . it would be going too far to argue that the phrase clearly excludes women. . . ." Douglas J. Moo, "The Interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:11-15: A Rejoinder,"TJ 2 NS (1981): 198-222, 211. Thomas Schreiner acknowledges, "The requirements for elders in 1 Tim 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9, including the statement that they are to be one-woman men, does not necessarily in and of itself preclude women from serving as elders. . . ." Thomas R. Schreiner's "Philip Payne on Familiar Ground: A Review of Philip B. Payne, Man and Woman, One in Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Paul's Letters." JBMW (Spring 2010): 33-46, 35.
The closest English equivalent to "one-woman man" is "monogamous," and it applies to both men and women.
You can read the post from which I've taken that quote, and I highly recommend it. Also note the comments below the post, in which the post author engages questions.
https://www.pbpayne.com/does-one-woman-man-in-1-timothy-32-require-that-all-overseers-be-male/ |
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Posts: 14803
8/28/16 1:45 pm
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| Re: (L) |
Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | In the discussion of what women must be restricted from in the Church of God, some people are adamant that women may not be bishops, yet the Bible does not (as I can tell) prohibit women from doing anything a bishop would do. Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 has no prohibitive language that would prevent a woman from serving in the capacity of bishop. My question is if there are any duties that are biblically required of a bishop that a woman is restricted from. |
There are two topics in your post. I'll address the one consistent with the title first.
Acts 20:28 refers to the elders of the church of Ephesus 'bishops.' It tells the elders to pastor the church of God over whom the Holy Ghost has made you overseers.
I Peter 5 tells the elders to pastor the flock of God, taking the oversight (compare to Greek for bishop) thereof.
Titus 1 uses 'elders' and 'bishop' to refer to the same ministry.
Elders are told to pastor the flock of God. Peter gives a few instructions in I Peter 1. Paul writes that the bishop is to be 'apt to teach.' In I Timothy 5, he writes of elders who rule well being worthy of double honor, especially those who minister in preaching and teaching.
Elders just suddenly show up on the scene in the church in Acts 9 without explanation, but actually they continue over from the Old Testament. There were elders among the people of Israel. Moses called together 70 elders on one occasion and the Lord put the spirit that was upon Moses upon them and they prophesied. Two that were in the camp also prophesied. Israel had elders in their tribes in the desert. Later, when the tribes settled in the promised land, there were elders in the cities.
In New Testament times, there were elders in these cities that were involved in the synagogues, and the national Sanhedrin were considered the heirs of the 70 elders. A portion of these elders were specifically referred to as 'elders', who had apparently been raised up from among judges among the people. Chief priests and scribes made up the other part of the Sanhedrin.
Sources about first century Jewish elders, judges, and the Sanhedrin tend to refer back to Tractate Sanhedrin, something I had never been able to find (until just now as I was writing this), but I read a portion that describes the requirements for judges, who could potentially become Sanhedrin elders. Requirements were more elaborate, but somewhat resembled Paul's requirements for bishops in some ways.
We need to keep in mind that the author Maimoinedes lived a thousand or so years after the fact, too.
Something to keep in mind is that the Old Testament elder role is a male role. It doesn't make sense that they would have called their women 'bearded ones.' The members of the Sanhedrin were apparently also male.
If we want to consider historical context and similarity between the requirements for bishops/elders and Jewish requirements for judges who could become members of the Sanhedrin, that Jewish judges had to be married men with children (so that they might know mercy.) If we are looking at a cultural and historical approach, that is something to consider.
Something else to consider is that the Old Testament, and to some extent the New Testament, is patriarchal. The tribes of Israel, which had elders, first as tribes, then as tribally arranged cities, were large families. Elders would have been prominent men in larger extended families. New Testament churches in the first century were large spiritual extended families. The New Testament tells wives to submit to their husbands, and speaks of women not teaching men and/or their husbands or usurping authority over them. Putting women 'in charge' of their husbands in church roles would be contrary to this principle.
Notice that these teachings about women not teaching men/husbands appear just before the qualifications for bishop in I Timothy. The bishop must also be 'apt to teach.'
When it comes to deacons, the text may actually allow for women deacons. The KJV says, 'Even so must their wives' which could also be translated, 'Even so must their women'. That could be allowing for female deacons, so we have requirements for deacons, who are to be the husband of one wife, and of 'their women' who have certain requirements as well.
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8/31/16 4:27 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Notice that these teachings about women not teaching men/husbands appear just before the qualifications for bishop in I Timothy. |
I think you've said that about a dozen times, and I think you're misguided in your inferences from the juxtaposition. How Paul instructs Timothy at Ephesus in 1 Timothy has much to do with false teaching. If you look at the letter as a whole, the bulk of it is dealing with false teaching (about 60%, according to Gordon Fee). What Paul says about the woman or women in 1 Timothy 2:12 stands in stark contrast to what he says about the women he mentions in Romans 16 and in Philippians 4:2-3. It cannot be made to be a blanket statement against women in authority or teaching because there are examples in the Bible of women in authority and teaching. In addition to that, the word usurp denotes more than just an exercise of authority. There are other words for rule and govern Paul could have used if that was what he was trying to convey, but the fact that he used authentein here and nowhere else in any of his letters should clue us in to something. |
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8/31/16 8:29 am
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sheepdogandy |
I have no problem with women preachers.
If one becomes the husband of one wife I'll have no problem with one becoming an Elder.
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8/31/16 5:30 pm
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bonnie knox |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | I have no problem with women preachers.
If one becomes the husband of one wife I'll have no problem with one becoming an Elder. |
Did you read the quote in green above? Consider the fact that it was written by complementarians (which I assume are not in favor of female bishops) who acknowledge that the idiom "husband of one wife" is NOT a phrase that would exclude women.
If you stop and think about it, I think you will realize that the same phrase is used of deacons--the very thing that Phoebe was called. |
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8/31/16 8:41 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Why then, do you believe the overwhelming majority of Christian organizations have prohibited women from serving as Elders?
For over 2000 years. 
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Posts: 7307
9/1/16 9:46 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
An excerpt from the Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, which shows that the exclusion of women from leadership offices in the church was actually a process that developed especially from the mid fourth century on, and was a deviation from the original dynamic of the early church:
| Quote: | Women were present at the choice of Matthias (Acts 1:13-14). On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit fell equally upon men and women (Acts 2:17-18), and women had a pronounced role in the ministry of the early church (Acts 9:36-43, 21:8-9, Rom. 16). Churches are identified as meeting in the homes of women, who apparently had leadership (Acts 12:12; 16:40; Rom. 16:3-5; 1 Cor. 1:11; 16:19; Col. 4:15; 2 John). Euodia and Syntyche are mentioned as colleagues of Paul (Phil. 4:2-3), as is Priscilla with her husband, Aquila, whose name usually stands second (Acts 18:1-4, 18-28; Rom. 16:3-4; 1 Cor. 16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19). The early fathers understood Junia (Rom. 16:7) to be a female apostle...
...In Church History. Tertullian wrote of four orders of female church officers, all mentioned in the Bible: deacons, virgins, widows, and eldresses. Some of these women were considered clerics, given ecclesial authority, and seated with the other clergy (Testament of the Lord 1.23). The NT speaks twice of women deacons (Rom. 16:1-2; 1 Tim. 3:11), and Pliny reports two deaconesses as leaders of a Christian community (Epistles 10.96.8). The ordination service of deaconesses is still preserved in the Apostolic Constitutions (8.19-20). Women elders are mentioned in 1 Tim. 5:2 or Titus 2:3, where they must be hieroprepeis, "worthy of holy office." The title, "eldress" was applied by the early church to those in the order of widows, whose qualifications are given in 1 Tim. 5:5-10. Early catacomb paintings show women in the authoritative stance of a bishop, conferring blessing on Christians of both sexes. Two frescoes appear to show women serving communion. Beginning about 350, prohibitions were issued against women's activities: Council of Laodicea (serving as priests or presiding over churches, establishing presbyteresses or presidents in the churches, approaching the altar). Fourth Synod of Carthage (teaching men or baptizing), 1st Council of Orange and the councils of Nimes, Epaons, and Orleans (ordination of deaconesses). These prohibitions prove the previous existence of such offices for women.
(Excerpt from article, "Women in the Church," Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Baker Book House, 1991, pp. 558-559, Kroeger and Kroeger). |
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9/1/16 10:08 am
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | sheepdogandy wrote: | I have no problem with women preachers.
If one becomes the husband of one wife I'll have no problem with one becoming an Elder. |
Did you read the quote in green above? Consider the fact that it was written by complementarians (which I assume are not in favor of female bishops) who acknowledge that the idiom "husband of one wife" is NOT a phrase that would exclude women. |
Their opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
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Link |
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9/1/16 10:38 am
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bonnie knox |
Link, I'm not sure why you so readily dismiss them when they are probably on your side of the complementarian fence. Presumably, they are against women bishops but they do not think one can prohibit them on the basis of the one phrase "husband of one wife."
Of course everyone has an opinion. I would weight an opinion more heavily if it is coming from someone who has spent some time in textual criticism than from someone who with no study whatsoever glibly states that "a woman can't be a husband." The fact of the matter is, if the phrase "husband of one wife" was enough in and of itself to prohibit women from being bishops, it would necessarily prohibit them from being deacons.
| Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | sheepdogandy wrote: | I have no problem with women preachers.
If one becomes the husband of one wife I'll have no problem with one becoming an Elder. |
Did you read the quote in green above? Consider the fact that it was written by complementarians (which I assume are not in favor of female bishops) who acknowledge that the idiom "husband of one wife" is NOT a phrase that would exclude women. |
Their opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. |
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Posts: 14803
9/1/16 10:54 am
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sheepdogandy |
Hey beloved!
This is America.
Sister, rent you a building and hang a sign on the front door.
Such and such Church.
Start holding meetings and see what happens.
Sister Aimee did and was quite successful. 
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7307
9/1/16 1:07 pm
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bonnie knox |
| If I wanted to pastor a church, I could certainly do that in the COG. I don't see pastoring in my future, in or out of the Church of God. |
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Posts: 14803
9/1/16 2:35 pm
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