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Some churches are small

Friendly Face Posts: 348 **9/19/12 5:53 am**

because the people wants them small. You can't be a big fish in a small pond, if the pond grows.

And then there's this....

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **9/19/12 6:52 am**

For lack of a better word, some churches grow DESPITE their inadequacies...and some don't DESPITE their excellence.

I attend a church with a very forward-thinking pastor. We hold events, we have VBS, we are a friendly church, etc. In fact, that's how our church has been for about the last 15 or so years. When I first came to this church, I was absolutely certain that with the excellent preaching, the best praise team in the county, and the exuberant fellowship and youth of our church, that we would quickly become the largest church.

It didn't happen. Yes, we grew. We eventually were 26th in our state in Sunday School and lots of great things happened. But we didn't bust down the walls, so to speak.

Down the road, there is a large Pentecostal church whose preaching, by good and sincere men of God, is still about two steps behind the Church of God preachers in our town. Their music is just one notch above Red back, and their sound system and music is not anywhere near acceptable levels, usually.

And yet they are the biggest Pentecostal church in the area!

WHY?

I finally realized that while SOME people may come to a church because of great singing or what have you, most people go because of...CONNECTIONS. If their family goes there, if their friends go there, the singing, preaching, and ministries are of secondary importance. This is why churches can hold well-planned, thoughtful events...and yet not see much change in their attendance numbers.

Some of this might be attributable to less than great follow-up or linkage, but most of it is because those people, though they come to your event--even to massive revivals--"fit" somewhere else better...perhaps where their family attends.

In 2001, we had one of those MASSIVE revivals. Five weeks of total awesome. At the end, though hundreds from the area had been blessed...we gained about 5-7 people. Now, it so happens that those people are worth their weight in gold and are now in the ministry, etc. But large increases, no.

People go to churches, mainly, I believe, because of connections. That is why friend-on-friend witnessing is so effective. Of family-on-family. A built-in connection is already there. Yes, some come for other reasons. And some churches may operate outside this principle altogether. But if great preaching, singing, fellowship, and ministry were the key, my church would be about seven times bigger.

There is simply more to it. And there is NO MAGIC BUTTONS, despite the millions of dollars of sales in "How to Grow Your Church" books.

you can

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **9/19/12 7:43 am**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **9/19/12 9:39 am**

Eddie, good point

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **9/19/12 3:41 pm**

There's something to that saying about "the rich getting richer." Large churches have the resources, financial and human, to create big, effective ministries.

A couple looking for a church that will be inviting to their children also are much more likely to join the ALREADY large church that has such things in place.

Also, some new plants soar. Why? Well, some of it is likely because of great preaching and music, but a thoughtful plant has an air of adventure and excitement that attracts. Consider that new plants almost never draw an audience that consists mainly of seniors. Why? Those seniors are likely already connected elsewhere. So a new plant can reach those who are not well-connected to their own churches, as well as new people who come to feel the need of being connected to something fresh and exciting.

But it's kind of like financial interest. The more principal you have, the greater the interest you will accrue. The more people you have, the more people seem to come...until you reach equilibrium of some sort.

Staying

Bound By Beaulah Posts: 1003 **9/19/12 6:38 pm**

I have been involved with several small churchs and the main thing I see the reason they not just stay small is they die a slow gradual death! Little by little each year till the doors close. The main reason I have seen is they are not first and formost about souls and reaching the lost. Most are not churchs, but mearly a hang out joint! I preached at a small church like this that the only different betwween alot of social clubs churchs and the V.F.W is this church has a cross on the building! Many of these small churchs Ichob had been written on the door long ago. They expect the preacher to bring people in. I told a small church that I pastored it is your place to bring people into here, sheep have sheep. Sheppards don't have sheep. Yes alot of the time they have suffered from a bad preacher, but the preacher is not the main problem. I have seen churchs with bad preachers that still grow, because they took there calling to heart and lived it. That is what I have seen. It is one of the sadest things you can see is a dead church and they think they are alive!
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Ronnie Lingerfelt A/K/A 4 golf.

Re: Staying

Friendly Face Posts: 349 **9/19/12 6:50 pm**

Re: Staying

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **9/19/12 9:15 pm**

Friendly Face Posts: 186 **9/19/12 9:19 pm**

I really think you have do define the word small here. Is a small church a church that runs 400 in a town of 600,000? Is a small church one that runs 100 in a town of 2,000? What is small?

Now most churches stay small because of lack of vision and lck of buy in. Others because of Gods sovereignty. Some because the people of the church would rather have a visitation minister/great preacher, but not a pastor or visionary leader. There are TONS of reason that churches grow and don't grow.

I heard Mark Driscoll speak on pruning at the NLC a few years ago. God pruns for these reasons, so that we grow and produce more fruit or so that we die and that was our purpose. After pruning either we will grow and bear more fruit or we will die. We have to ask ourselves the question on dying churches are we trying to save something God is trying to prun or something that was pruned and is dying.....I got lots more on this subject, but I digress!
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Jason Burton
Wrens Church of God
Wrens, GA
"I am what I am by the grace of God!"

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4804 **9/19/12 10:03 pm**

In this discussion we need to separate 2 kinds of growth here - transfer growth and evangelistic growth..

In the area of transfer growth, I agree with Inspired Hillbilly. There are a ton of consumer Christians out there looking for the Golden Corral of churches that can offer everything you'd ever want on a buffet.. As someone who's been involved in church planting, and as a parent, there is a fine line here.. Yes, we want our kids to have good church programs, but I also realized that while our church was in its infancy, we had to help create a core kids ministry for other kids to come to.. It goes both ways. When a church is small, you're going to have to ask some people to be committed, regardless of the size and perceived "quality" of the programs and ministries... But in the meantime, parents are going to have to take some responsibility at home to instill some Christian values and education in their kids.... Come on, church is a couple of hours a week at most. I can promise you that your kids can make it in a "lesser quality" setting while the program/ministry is being built. Make sure the basics are happening, and it's ok if your kids don't have puppets, video, lights, and a band right away.

Now, from the evangelistic side of things -- if your church isn't outward focused, you'll never grown. That's the bottom line, unless you're in a very rural community that has no growth. Our church is only 2 years old, but we have a healthy level of growth and just moved into a new building... Now, the church my dad grew up in is located in a very rural farming community, about 15 miles away from the closest town. My grandfather, who has been dead since 1984 helped that church recover from damage many years ago... Since then, they've not built anything there except a picnic pavilion and more graves in the graveyard.... But that community isn't growing either.. It's mostly aging farmers and their families who decide to stay on and keep the farms going.

So you have to be fair in evaluating the whole story. Some churches stay small because they are full of small minded, inwardly focused people with poor leadership... Some stay small because there's simply no growth in the community... Some are small because they can be more effective small... You can't make any blanket statements on this one, as there are too many variables...

And not all big churches are effective either. I know many churches that grow from the problems of other churches, and the problems just transfer with them...
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My Facebook www.facebook.com/theB3

Friendly Face Posts: 349 **9/19/12 10:06 pm**

Christlaw

Bound By Beaulah Posts: 1003 **9/19/12 10:26 pm**

Christlaw now that is funny " Michelob over the door"!! I don't care were you are from, that is funny! Come to think of it I wouldn't be suprised to see it over churchs door today. I have lost the stunness of being surprised!
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Ronnie Lingerfelt A/K/A 4 golf.

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **9/20/12 1:17 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **9/20/12 2:41 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5923 **9/20/12 3:18 pm**

Revuriah...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **9/20/12 3:30 pm**

It's all Kingdom work. They come to your church, they are touched, the determine to "get back in church"...AND THEY DO...just not at your church. Your church, however, played a role.

I remember Ray H. Hughes telling about a revival he went to where he didn't have much results. A short while after, another preacher went there and just had great results. RHH was whining about it to God, saying, "God, I plowed the field, etc." God spoke to him and said, "A record is being kept" (or something like that. So whether it shows up on earth's radar, God is not unfaithful to forget your labor of love.

Lastly, I grew up in "small" churches. Yes, we got better over the years in terms of Children's Church, Sunday School, music, etc. But I have always felt that I was the most privileged person on earth to have been permitted to grow up "in the House of the Lord." I loved the Church of God--and I came up during the "Golden Age," you might say, of our denomination--a mixture of modern times and full-bore Pentecostal passion.

Your children may very well be receiving FAR MORE than they ever would if they went to a church that had all the bells and whistles. I sure did. I seldom knew what it was for the children to have their own church--I got to experience the same church the adults did, and I grew to love it with all my heart.

Re: Revuriah...

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **9/20/12 3:40 pm**

Re: Revuriah...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5923 **9/20/12 5:49 pm**

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **9/20/12 6:24 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1037 **9/20/12 7:32 pm**

Does God love the pastor of a "large" church more than He does the pastor of a "small" church? Does He view them in a different light? I remember going to church growth conferences and leave feeling defeated rather than encourage because I was not pastoring a large church. But really I was because I was averaging 105 in a town of 500 people.

Paul Walker shared a vision that the Lord showed him several years ago. In the vision he saw a large vine that stretched as far as he could see in either direction. On that vine was a small insignificant branch. He asked the Lord what that meant. The Lord responded, "I am the vine, you are the branch."

He then said that all of a sudden there were branches all over the vine. They were the same size and he could no longer see his. He asked the Lord what this meant. The Lord responded, "I am the vine and these are the branches that I have connected to me" whether they are pastors of larger churches or small ones. He said the Lord reminded him that he was no more important than the other Shepherds caring for their flocks.

I think the main thing is to be faithful where God plants us.

I read all the post here and there is good points in all of them. I love the dialogue and discussion.