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 If you're not Pre-Trib ...what triggers the tribulation in your belief/opinion? |
Dean Steenburgh |
It wasn't until my later 20's that I began hearing people talk about another belief regarding the tribulation.
I was raised CoG, so was my dad, his dad & his dad & all I ever heard was the pre-trib belief that I hold to until this very day.
I cannot wrap my thoughts, theories, beliefs or my brain around any other teaching as I cannot see where the tribulation has a starting place outside the rapture of the church.
This thread is not about whether or not the word 'rapture' is mentioned in scripture so lets agree not to go there.
Just having some dialogue with you regarding your thoughts or beliefs of the tribulation ignition if you do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/1/17 10:07 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
The Abomination of Desolation triggers the Tribulation.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/1/17 10:43 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | The Abomination of Desolation triggers the Tribulation. |
So you believe in a mid-trib then?
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/1/17 10:45 pm
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| Re: If you're not Pre-Trib ...what triggers the tribulation in your belief/opinion? |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | It wasn't until my later 20's that I began hearing people talk about another belief regarding the tribulation.
I was raised CoG, so was my dad, his dad & his dad & all I ever heard was the pre-trib belief that I hold to until this very day.
I cannot wrap my thoughts, theories, beliefs or my brain around any other teaching as I cannot see where the tribulation has a starting place outside the rapture of the church.
This thread is not about whether or not the word 'rapture' is mentioned in scripture so lets agree not to go there.
Just having some dialogue with you regarding your thoughts or beliefs of the tribulation ignition if you do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.
. |
I too was raised on the pretrib theory. It was really never questioned by me growing up. I had no interest at all in changing my view. Then I began studying it (pretrib) in earnest while in Bible college, and continued to study the various end-times theories as I began pastoring. For a while I found the prewrath view of Rosenthal intriguing, but eventually found it had the same basic flawed assumption as I had come to see in the pretrib view. That is, the idea that there will be two phases to the return of Christ, separated by a significant period of time.
As one who finds the posttrib premillenial view to be the most convincing theory (but who also will not be upset one bit if pretrib turns out to be true!) I nevertheless must say that each of the NT passages which speak of the rapture fit perfectly into what Revelation calls the first resurrection, before which there can be no other 'first' resurrection of the just, at the last trumpet, after which there cannot logically be yet another last trump.
As far as the beginning of the tribulation period is concerned, except for the secret rapture idea that is held to by pretribbers, I don't see any difference between posttrib and pretrib with regard to the sequence of events in the tribulation period itself. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/1/17 10:59 pm
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| Matthew 24:15-51 |
Brandon Bohannon |
Describes the 2nd coming of Jesus and the "gathering of the elect" happening after the greatest tribulation that has ever happen or ever will be.
I believe that He's (Jesus) coming back like He said. I believe in the 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ! I believe that "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
I grew up pretribulation and would absolutely love for it to be true! The problem for me is that it just doesn't square with Scripture. The more that I study Daniel, Matthew, Revelation, et al, the more convinced I become that it isn't what the Word reveals. The truth is, none of us know when we will die. None of us know the day or the hour of the Lord's return, all though I am more and more convinced that He will return on a future Feast of Trumpets. What we do know is that He is coming back and that it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment, so we should live every moment and every day as if it could be our last and as if He could come. Bible prophesy is being fulfilled all around us! Just as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man.
I am convinced that there are people alive right now that will see the return of our Lord, Jesus Christ!
Thank you for the fun conversation!
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 571
7/1/17 11:09 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
We have the rapture of the church teachings wrought by hundreds of years of faith & belief.
We have the sounding of the trumpet for the dead & the 2nd trumpet for those who are alive & remain.
Caught up to meet the Lord in the air - why would we be caught up just to come back seconds later for the 1,000 yr reign?
We have the marriage supper of the Lamb which takes place during the 7 yr trib.
We have the 7 year period which is carefully calculated & to which we have 7 years of tribulation & turmoil. No man can know the day when He will return.
Mid or post trib give us the exact day when it all ends.
We have no place in scripture where the righteous are ever subjected to torment or abstract evil.
I'll say similar like you, if I'm wrong I'll live for God through the trib but hopefully I'm right & I don't see God beating up His bride just before the marriage supper.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/1/17 11:25 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
It is a common misconception of pretribbers that the posttrib view posits or requires that the faithful Christian will be subject to God's wrath. However, no posttrib writer I have studied has ever stated such. The posttrib view says that the faithful will definitely not be subject to the wrath of God, the judgements poured out in the tribulation period. So the old canard that, "God would be a wifebeater if He put his church through the tribulation period," is just silly. No posttrib believer who knows what he's talking about claims that tribulation saints will be subject to the wrath of God, or that the wrath of God is ever poured out indiscriminately upon people. Throughout Scripture, the wrath of God is always directed at and meted out upon the wicked and not the righteous.
As to 'centuries,' the secret rapture (pretrib) teaching actually cannot be found in historic Christian teaching prior to 1830.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 7/2/17 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/1/17 11:35 pm
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Brandon Bohannon |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: |
We have no place in scripture where the righteous are ever subjected to torment or abstract evil.
. |
Hebrews 11:35-39 and Revelation Revelation 6:9 are two examples in Scripture where the righteous are subjected to tribulation, persecution and even martyrdom.
John 16:33 says, I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have peace. In this world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
I'm about to have to go to sleep so I may not respond again tonight, but good conversation! I always enjoy this topic! Constantly learning and as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another!
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 571
7/1/17 11:41 pm
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| We subscribe to Rosenthal's |
brotherjames |
| Pre-wrath theology. Still makes the most sense to me and btw there is not a lenghty time between events although there are 2 phases. I can see the post trib as well but cant reconcile that with the wrath of God being poured out during the last 3.5 yrs on ALL the world. |
Acts-celerater
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7/2/17 6:09 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | The Abomination of Desolation triggers the Tribulation. |
So you believe in a mid-trib then?
. |
Actually I believe the trib is only 3 and a half years long and starts half way through the 7 year pact. The rapture then happens at the end of the trib.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/2/17 8:05 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | We have the rapture of the church teachings wrought by hundreds of years of faith & belief.
We have the sounding of the trumpet for the dead & the 2nd trumpet for those who are alive & remain.
Caught up to meet the Lord in the air - why would we be caught up just to come back seconds later for the 1,000 yr reign?
We have the marriage supper of the Lamb which takes place during the 7 yr trib.
We have the 7 year period which is carefully calculated & to which we have 7 years of tribulation & turmoil. No man can know the day when He will return.
Mid or post trib give us the exact day when it all ends.
We have no place in scripture where the righteous are ever subjected to torment or abstract evil.
I'll say similar like you, if I'm wrong I'll live for God through the trib but hopefully I'm right & I don't see God beating up His bride just before the marriage supper.
. |
The call to the Marriage Supper taking place at the end of the Tribulation....
Revelation 19
1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2
for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
3 And again they shouted:
“Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you his servants,
you who fear him,
both great and small!”
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7
Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8
Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/2/17 9:21 am
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| From a recent bible study |
Dean Steenburgh |
Here are part of the notes I used in our study about 3 weeks ago:
Speaking of the abomination of desolation since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.
For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/2/17 3:06 pm
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| Re: From a recent bible study |
Resident Skeptic |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Here are part of the notes I used in our study about 3 weeks ago:
Speaking of the abomination of desolation since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.
For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). |
We actually agree. It's just that many mistakenly refer to the whole 7 year period as the Tribulation when it is actually the last 3-1/2 years.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/2/17 3:13 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | It is a common misconception of pretribbers that the posttrib view posits or requires that the faithful Christian will be subject to God's wrath. However, no posttrib writer I have studied has ever stated such. The posttrib view says that the faithful will definitely not be subject to the wrath of God, the judgements poured out in the tribulation period. So the old canard that, "God would be a wifebeater if He put his church through the tribulation period," is just silly. No posttrib believer who knows what he's talking about claims that tribulation saints will be subject to the wrath of God, or that the wrath of God is ever poured out indiscriminately upon people. Throughout Scripture, the wrath of God is always directed at and meted out upon the wicked and not the righteous.
As to 'centuries,' the secret rapture (pretrib) teaching actually cannot be found in historic Christian teaching prior to 1830. |
I laughed myself silly over that comment about the wifebeater, I've never heard that before.
But your theory sounds a little off if I'm reading you right.
Are you saying that while all of the horrible events of the tribulation are happening all around the world that Christians will not be effected by it?
Tribulation that Jesus said will be like nothing the world has ever seen??
Part of the tribulation will be scorching heat, bloody water, winds held back, extreme affliction, not to mention the mark of the beast where no man can buy or sell.
Looking for clarification here, are you saying that Christians will not feel the effect of these calamities or are you saying Christians will feel the effect but will be supernaturally cared for?
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/2/17 3:24 pm
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| Re: From a recent bible study |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Here are part of the notes I used in our study about 3 weeks ago:
Speaking of the abomination of desolation since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.
For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). |
We actually agree. It's just that many mistakenly refer to the whole 7 year period as the Tribulation when it is actually the last 3-1/2 years. |
I see what you're saying, some of the diff ones i read about also state that the 7 yr trib will be broken down into 2 sections where the 1st part may appear to be like normal life but the second half is called the 'great trib'.
I look back on so many of our forefathers who have taught us to be ready for the great snatching away & to keep our lamps trimmed fore we never know when the Bridegroom comes so I of course naturally hold fast to those teachings.
I taught a course for 50 weeks on this subject & I cannot see the Lord taking us through the half way point & especially not to the end of the tribulation.
My only conclusion is that there will be a snatching away of the saints & we will enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb during the 7 year trib.
Once the 7 years is up on earth Christ returns with the saints & the enemy is bound for 1,000 years while we reign here on the new earth as kings & priests.
After the 1,000 yrs the devil is loosed for a season & will try one last attack but God will banish him & his followers into the bottomless pit forever & we will live in heaven for eternity where time shall be no more but bliss will remain for the chosen of God which we are.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/2/17 3:44 pm
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Preacher777 |
[quote="Quiet Wyatt"]
As to 'centuries,' the secret rapture (pretrib) teaching actually cannot be found in historic Christian teaching prior to 1830.[/quote]
Very interesting comment Wyatt. I was also raised pre-trib and just assumed it was taught by the early church and the Reformers. I was shocked when a woman who is a solid Bible scholar told us that the secret rapture theory is less than 200 years old.
I never studied this out myself but do respect the source who shared Wyatt's quote above. If it is true the the secret tribulation theory is less than 200 years old I am curious why God would wait until then to share this important truth.
Perhaps Wyatt or somebody else can share some reasons why God would wait until about 1800 years after Christ to reveal this secret rapture truth? I don't remember the chain of who taught on the seccret rapture around 1830 and where it took off from there.
Anybody have information on this subject? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 434
7/2/17 5:08 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Preacher777 wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: |
As to 'centuries,' the secret rapture (pretrib) teaching actually cannot be found in historic Christian teaching prior to 1830. |
Very interesting comment Wyatt. I was also raised pre-trib and just assumed it was taught by the early church and the Reformers. I was shocked when a woman who is a solid Bible scholar told us that the secret rapture theory is less than 200 years old.
I never studied this out myself but do respect the source who shared Wyatt's quote above. If it is true the the secret tribulation theory is less than 200 years old I am curious why God would wait until then to share this important truth.
Perhaps Wyatt or somebody else can share some reasons why God would wait until about 1800 years after Christ to reveal this secret rapture truth? I don't remember the chain of who taught on the seccret rapture around 1830 and where it took off from there.
Anybody have information on this subject? |
For the matter that QW mentions it may be true that the general acceptance was taught by various churches & preachers in 1830 but it was a subject that was written about on many occasions much earlier. Catholic jesuits wrote about it as early as 1590.
The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the 17th-century American Puritans Increase & Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on earth, & then the millennium.
Other 17th-century expressions of the rapture are found in the writings of: Robert Maton, Nathaniel Homes, John Browne, Thomas Vincent, Henry Danvers, & William Sherwin. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge & John Gill in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on earth & Jesus' 2nd coming.
There are at least one 18th-century & two 19th-century pre-tribulation references. There was an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia by a Baptist preacher, Morgan Edwards which articulated the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture & in the writings of Catholic priest Manuel Lacunza in 1812.
Now couple this with our very own belief in speaking in tongues. There isn't a lot of credible experimentation historically. Over the centuries there are a few places where people claim to have practiced it but there was no general overall acceptance of glossolalia amongst the denominations. In fact it kinda went through some rough patches historically even to the point where the Mormons claimed to practice it up until the 1930's-40's.
I just don't think we can discredit the rapture based on it not being given a heavy spotlight over the centuries in light of how Pentecost itself has been treated historically.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
7/2/17 10:13 pm
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Link |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: |
Caught up to meet the Lord in the air - why would we be caught up just to come back seconds later for the 1,000 yr reign?
|
I think a better question would be why would the church go be in heaven for 7 years if Jesus is coming down to the earth at that time to execute judgment on them that believe not and to reign and rule for 100 years?
If you look at straightforward passages on the topic, the resurrection occurs at Jesus coming, not seven years before His coming, and the rapture immediately follows the resurrection.
In Corinthians 15 tells us that in Christ shall all be made alive, Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming. So notice that the dead are not made alive 7 years before Jesus' coming, but at His coming.
Another straightforward passage, II Thessalonians 1, shows that the church is here when Jesus comes back. Jesus returns to give the church rest. This happens when He comes to execute judgment on them that believe not, and to be glorified in the saints. How does that fit with pre-trib at all? A straightforward interpretation is that this is all 'the second coming.'
II Thessalonians 1 describes this as occurring at 'that day.' The passage continues in chapter 2, where we learn that 'that day' cannot occur until the man of sin has been revealed.
I notice pre-trib tends to rely on allegorical interpretations and a step or two of reasoning removed from what the text says. Allegorical interpretations would be such things as interpreting the command to John, 'Come up hither' to allegorically refer to the church being raptured. By a step or two removed in reasoning, I mean things like saying, "The church is not appointed unto wrath. Wrath will be poured out in the tribulation, so the rapture has to be pre-trib'. That is a flawed argument, because God can aim His wrath as He He was selective with His judgments in Egypt. And there are also 'tribulational saints', and are they supposed to be appointed unto wrath.
Post-trib fits with what the clearer, not apoctalyptic-literature passages plainly state.
I was taught post-trib, but had to let it go when I couldn't find it taught in the Bible, and I began to see how it contradicted passage like the ones I mentioned above. When I read defenses of it, and especially when I hear 'Bible prophecy' guys on the radio defend it, pre-trib is just assumed. They'll assert that pre-trib has to happen, maybe wrap pre-trib around a few verses. The verses don't actually teach pre-trib, but could be interpreted as pre-trib if you assume it in the first place.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/2/17 10:15 pm
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Some people try to say the 'secret rapture' started with a Margaret McDonald prophecy, who was from a family who experienced prophecy, maybe tongues and interpretation (trying to remember) and healing, which helped influence the group that came to be known as 'Irvingites' by their critics and as the 'Catholic Apostolic Church' internally after Irving died.
But the version of the prophecy I read didn't sound like it supported the modern pre-trib rapture theory at all. But the Plymouth Brethren movement started around the same time. I don't know if Darby was teaching pre-trib at that time, but he did develop the pre-trib theory into roughly what it is today during his lifetime. Though I read (in an Internet post, I think) some of the other people in the brethren movement like George Muller weren't very receptive to his speculative points of eschatology.
The group Irving was with had some interaction with the Plymouth Brethren at what we might now call Bible prophecy conferences back then. But that group wasn't pre-trib. And Darby developed a cessationist belief concerning spiritual gifts. So it is quite ironic that Pentecostals tend to be adherents of his eschatological viewpoint.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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7/2/17 10:21 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Link wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: |
Caught up to meet the Lord in the air - why would we be caught up just to come back seconds later for the 1,000 yr reign?
|
I think a better question would be why would the church go be in heaven for 7 years if Jesus is coming down to the earth at that time to execute judgment on them that believe not and to reign and rule for 100 years?
If you look at straightforward passages on the topic, the resurrection occurs at Jesus coming, not seven years before His coming, and the rapture immediately follows the resurrection.
In Corinthians 15 tells us that in Christ shall all be made alive, Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming. So notice that the dead are not made alive 7 years before Jesus' coming, but at His coming.
Another straightforward passage, II Thessalonians 1, shows that the church is here when Jesus comes back. Jesus returns to give the church rest. This happens when He comes to execute judgment on them that believe not, and to be glorified in the saints. How does that fit with pre-trib at all? A straightforward interpretation is that this is all 'the second coming.'
II Thessalonians 1 describes this as occurring at 'that day.' The passage continues in chapter 2, where we learn that 'that day' cannot occur until the man of sin has been revealed.
I notice pre-trib tends to rely on allegorical interpretations and a step or two of reasoning removed from what the text says. Allegorical interpretations would be such things as interpreting the command to John, 'Come up hither' to allegorically refer to the church being raptured. By a step or two removed in reasoning, I mean things like saying, "The church is not appointed unto wrath. Wrath will be poured out in the tribulation, so the rapture has to be pre-trib'. That is a flawed argument, because God can aim His wrath as He He was selective with His judgments in Egypt. And there are also 'tribulational saints', and are they supposed to be appointed unto wrath.
Post-trib fits with what the clearer, not apoctalyptic-literature passages plainly state.
I was taught post-trib, but had to let it go when I couldn't find it taught in the Bible, and I began to see how it contradicted passage like the ones I mentioned above. When I read defenses of it, and especially when I hear 'Bible prophecy' guys on the radio defend it, pre-trib is just assumed. They'll assert that pre-trib has to happen, maybe wrap pre-trib around a few verses. The verses don't actually teach pre-trib, but could be interpreted as pre-trib if you assume it in the first place. |
I think you meant to say pre-trib.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
7/2/17 10:51 pm
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