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 Who was Jesus talking to on the cross? God or himself? |
caseyleejones |
........when he said "My God My God". Did he pray to himself other times?
Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Wait.......What??????
Acts 7:55 (KJV)
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
....and to really mess things up....the Holy Ghost was inside of Stephen..... |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
10/2/12 10:23 pm
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| Re: Who was Jesus talking to on the cross? God or himself? |
Resident Skeptic |
| caseyleejones wrote: | ........when he said "My God My God". Did he pray to himself other times?
Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Wait.......What??????
Acts 7:55 (KJV)
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
....and to really mess things up....the Holy Ghost was inside of Stephen..... |
Yes, those who believe in Christ's deity (no matter the label you attach to it) have to wrestle with these questions.
First of all, God is a "He", and indivisible "being". Yet this He is triune in his revelation to us. Some call the trifold way he reveals himself to us "persons", "manifestations", or other terms.
So when we see interaction between the three aspects (persons/manifestations, etc) of this He/being, is he talking to himself? Are his three "selves" having a conversation with each other? Again, ALL Christians who believe there are distinctions within God have to wrestle with this. Yet some have the audacity to poke fun at the others interpretation as if they themselves don't have the same questions to answer, and as if though their own beliefs don't produce the same questions.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 5:36 am
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bradfreeman |
This was the only time Jesus, when speaking to God, called him "God". He always called Him "Father". He was forsaken.
He was forsaken in our place so that we will never be forsaken!
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
10/3/12 6:12 am
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Scooter |
  He was just quoting scripture out of context. 
| Quote: | | [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? |
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1741
10/3/12 6:23 am
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| God is greater... |
demon hunter |
"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).
Was Jesus stating this because he was also 100% man at the time also?
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Our careless feet leaving trails
Never minding the fragile dirt that we all end in |
Friendly Face
Posts: 252
10/3/12 7:57 am
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| identity crisis???? |
caseyleejones |
| perhaps.......don't think so.... |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
10/3/12 7:59 am
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| Re: God is greater... |
Resident Skeptic |
| demon hunter wrote: | "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).
Was Jesus stating this because he was also 100% man at the time also? |
Absolutely. According to the doctrine of the Trinity, all three "persons" are co-equal in every attribute of deity, including omniscience and omnipotence. Therefore, Jesus had to be speaking from the standpoint of a limited man.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 8:06 am
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| Re: identity crisis???? |
Resident Skeptic |
| caseyleejones wrote: | | perhaps.......don't think so.... |
How do you get that from demon hunter's point? Just curious.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 8:07 am
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Christlaw |
He was talking to His Father, like he always did. Nothing unusual for Him. He did nothing except what He saw the Father doing. As such, He was never forsaken. He was quoting Psalm 22 as being fulfilled. He finally expressed confidence in the Father, saying, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."
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If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 8:19 am
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Christlaw |
Reading Psalm 22:1 in its proper context (the whole Psalm) it is actually an expression of confidence in God to deliver the one who may seem forsaken.
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If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 8:30 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | He was talking to His Father, like he always did. Nothing unusual for Him. He did nothing except what He saw the Father doing. As such, He was never forsaken. He was quoting Psalm 22 as being fulfilled. He finally expressed confidence in the Father, saying, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." |
I think Casey was asking this question from the standpoint of the seeming problem that is created by communication within the being of God himself. Does this communication constitute God talking to himself? Does God have "three selves"?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 8:45 am
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Christlaw |
I can't see how the scriptural revelation makes any sense at all apart from a trinitarian view of God in three persons. John 5:19, 5:30, 14:26, 16:13, Matt 11:27, Acts 2:33, Acts 10:38, Hebrews 1:8-9, etc.
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If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 9:10 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
depends on what the definition of person is.... if one defines a person as being a separate, distinct center of consciousness... a separate will... a separate being...
So, Christlaw, what is your definition of person?
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
10/3/12 9:14 am
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Resident Skeptic |
The point here though is not which Godhead model is the best. That is entirely up to the individual. The point is the seeming problem that is created by communication within the being of God himself. Does this communication constitute God talking to himself? Does God have "three selves"?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 9:21 am
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Christlaw |
Jesus said He came not to do His own will, but the will of Him that sent Him, and prayed not my will but Thine be done, so clearly He had his own will. I am very familiar with the Oneness/modalist view and have had good friends who were Oneness over the years. Though I don't consider Oneness a cult, I do not find their view as any improvement on the trinitarian view.
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If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Last edited by Christlaw on 10/3/12 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 9:26 am
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Christlaw |
A person is an individual self with his own mind, will, emotions, identity, etc. it is not clear how the Oneness view has any advantage at all over the trinitarian view.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 9:29 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | Jesus said He came not to do His own will, but the will of Him that sent Him, and prayed not my will but Thine be done, so clearly He had his own will. I am very familiar with the Oneness/moralist view and have had good friends who were Oneness over the years. Though I don't consider Oneness a cult, I do not find their view as any improvement on the trinitarian view. |
Again, this thread is not about the Oneness doctrine vs. the Trinity, so please don't try to make it that. Casey is not Oneness. This thread is about the seeming problem that BOTH the Oneness and Trinitarian positions have in explaining communication within the being of God. This seeming problem arises from the fact that God has revealed himself as a BEING, a singular HE. Yet the scripture also reveals that he is TRIUNE in his self revelation. So, does that mean that when communication happens within the being of the "He", he is talking to himself?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 9:37 am
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Christlaw |
It is no problem for the trinitarian view. The Son was talking to His Father. The classic trinitarian view is that the three were consubstantial, of one substance, not one person or being without distinction.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 9:41 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | It is no problem for the trinitarian view. The Son was talking to His Father. The classic trinitarian view is that the three were consubstantial, of one substance, not one person or being without distinction. |
Nobody is claiming that God is a being without distinction, so your point really is not valid to the discussion. However, even with distinctions, he is still a BEING, a HE. That is clearly evident from the Old Testament. So the classic Trinity view does not escape this same seeming problem that Casey has raised by creating this thread. If one denies that God is a HE, a BEING, then they cannot even claim to be a classic Trinitarian.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 9:47 am
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Christlaw |
(Chuckle). I obviously disagree with your assessment of what it means to be a classic trinitarian. The Nicene Creed plainly states that the Son was of one substance with the Father. Modalism was an earlier tangent the church had already rejected long before Nicea.
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If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 9:52 am
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