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Holy Spirit Baptism questions

Acts-celerater Posts: 902 **7/31/12 1:04 pm**

What if I preach a sermon explaining who the Holy Spirit is, our need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and that tongues is the initial evidence. I also explain that the we must receive the HS by faith just like we do salvation. I explain that it is a gift just like salvation. (This was a very detailed teaching) Then I give and invitation and 4-5 people come forward in faith to receive. I pray for them and ask God to fill them but none of them speak in tongues. Is it my fault? Is God to blame? Do they lack faith? Should I continue to pray and try to get them to speak in tongues or should I instruct them to accept it in faith and expect to speak in tongues in the future?
If it is a gift why does it seem so hard to receive? Why don’t God just overwhelm tham like he seemed to do in Acts?

I know this is a lot but I think this is a discussion we as Pentecostals should have. Thanks for your comments.
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Friendly Face Posts: 117 **7/31/12 1:13 pm**

Curtis, I think you are correct in saying that if an individual does not immediately speak in tongues upon asking for the gift of the Holy Ghost that they should BELIEVE/HAVE FAITH that they will eventually do so. The fact is, every believer is INDWELT by the Holy Ghost at the moment of conversion (I.E.) being BORN-AGAIN by the Spirit [See JN.4], but there is a BAPTISM or OVERFLOWING of the Spirit as mentioned in JN.7. So a believer, asking for the GIFT or baptism of the Holy Ghost is not asking for someone to come IN, but actually to come OUT as an overflow. In other words, the baptism of the Holy Ghost should be a naturally supernatural progression of allowing the Holy Ghost to occupy more of US rather than us possessing more of Him.

Re: Holy Spirit Baptism questions

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **7/31/12 6:27 pm**

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **7/31/12 6:57 pm**

Yep...I spoke in tongues riding down the road listening to Carl Richardson on a cassette tape. He said "don't worry if it's you speaking, it IS you that speaks." I released my tongue and spoke in tongues. I guess I was trying so hard to not interfere with the Holy Ghost that I forgot that I was the one in control of my tongue.

This is after many years of seeking the gift. However, I am convinced that I had been filled with the Spirit years before and the only reason I didn't speak in tongues was that I simply didn't speak. The Holy Ghost did His part, I didn't do mine. This is why I do not say that tongues is the initial evidence because I controlled my tongue.

It is my experience. I know what the COG teaches, I just disagree with it based on my experience.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **7/31/12 7:19 pm**

No, it's not your fault...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **7/31/12 9:36 pm**

Some people are wired to be analytical--it takes more understanding and insight for them to "get to" tongues.

I know. I was one of them.

I was raised in the home of a full-time evangelist (from nearly the moment I was born), later a full-time pastor...and though I was truly, sincerely, absolutely saved at the age of six-years-old, it took, I suppose TWENTY YEARS before I received the Holy Ghost (oddly enough, it took my dad ten years--from the age of nine to nineteen).

My mother would speak to me of "yielding," but I could not then grasp what she meant. I thought I WAS yielding. And she would tell me that the Holy Ghost would feel very familiar--the baptism would not be something that felt strange, etc.

But being raised in true-blue Pentecost, I thought that the Holy Ghost was as far beyond salvation as the east is from the west (I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea).

My father would counsel me about receiving the Holy Ghost, but, again, I had a very analytical mind. I was raised to be so respectful of the Holy Ghost that I suppose I felt that if I, myself, spoke in tongues, it would be a terrible sin against the Lord. I could not make the right connection that Bro. Eddie mentioned--that it WOULD be me speaking...but the HOLY GHOST giving the utterance. I just thought the Holy Ghost would "grab" my tongue and take off.

Now, those years were not wasted. I was growing in the Lord, seeking to walk in the Spirit, hiding His Word in my heart, and growing up pretty much like Samuel did, in the House of the Lord. In fact, in retrospect, I'm not sure that receiving the Holy Ghost at an early age would have been as effective as it was after I had waited so long. I think I might have had an "Well, I've now achieved the highest thing God has, so I can relax" attitude. Instead, while I certainly wasn't "tarrying" all those years for the Holy Ghost (I'd go through seasons of sincere seeking...followed by an oh-well-I-guess-it's-not-going-to-happen-this-time season, etc.), I was slowly growing to internalize (though I knew it intellectually) that the Holy Spirt was so much more. Further, I was gettting to the place to where, upon seeing complacent Christians who had been baptized in the Holy Ghost, that I was growing determined that IF I EVER DID receive the Holy Ghost, I was not going to let it fall to the floor, so to speak (even though I must admit I've been through seasons where I was not very diligent with the gift God gave me).

In any case, after years of not having the Holy Ghost, one day a lady in our church asked me if I'd drive her and her family across town (she had several kids). I agreed. As we were driving, she was telling me of some things she was praying for, and perhaps that she was discouraged that they had not come to pass. To encourage here, and feeling the passion of the moment, I said, "Jesus can do ANYTHING!" And immediately something welled up within me...something I had felt many times before. I didn't know how to vent that rising, so it came out in tears (I was wearing sunglasses, so she didn't even know that had happened). In fact, in all the times I had felt that in the past, it had expressed itself either in my redoubling my efforts to pray, or in weeping, or what have you.

That evening, I mentioned that to my dad--and the connection was finally mad. "That's the Holy Ghost!" he told me. Well, yes, I knew that, but I with a few more admontions I was finally made to realize what should have been plain so long before. I was made to understand that when I felt that upswelling (overflow?), to not get lost in prayer or weeping, but to be cognizant of what the Holy Spirit wanted to SAY through me. I, I, I would do the speaking, but HE would give the words to speak. It was exactly as Acts 2 said it was, but I FINALLY was made to understand.

By the time I felt that again, I had been given three very short words, and I spoke them. It was in the KNOWING that I was now speaking HIS WORDS through MY VOICE that I received the Holy Ghost. Had I not had that assurance, I might have felt embarrassed, might have felt that I had not really received the Holy Ghost.

And that KNOWING is what we mean by FAITH, I believe. Anything less than full assurance and the devil will likely try to convince you it was just you, etc. But because I now understood and could now KNOW, I KNEW it was not just me speaking, but the Holy Ghost.

And what if I had been doing it in the flesh? If my heart was sincere, and if I had truly felt the Spirit, I am sure God would have found a way to correct and guide me.

Just like my mother had said, this was not a strange or unfamiliar feeling. I had felt it many, many times before, often in the altars seeking the Holy Ghost. In fact, I concluded that the Holy Ghost had overflowed in me LONG BEFORE I had the sense to understand how tongues worked. That is, I did not manifest the INITIAL EVIDENCE at the time, but the SAME THING had taken place! Of course, because I had not spoken in tongues, I had no assurance at all that I had received the Holy Ghost. If someone would have told me that I had, I would have denied it--why, I didn't speak in tongues, did I?

I'm not making a doctrine of me having received the Holy Ghost years before I actually spoke in tongues. I'm simply trying to cause others to understand how it happened to me. I had felt that very same feeling before--that rising, upwelling, overflow from within--but I had not known how to proceed from that point onward! I was stymied because I didn't understand how tongues worked.

When people receive on of those amazing blessings that is far beyond motion, movement, excitement, and so forth (i.e., it's may be all those things, but it is MORE than that, too--it is the REAL move of God upon you), I believe that RIGHT THEN, if they can understand how to proceed, they will receive the Holy Ghost. But most think they either have to "help" the Holy Ghost by making up their own words (you don't)...or that they are completely passive in this process (they aren't). HE will speak through you--LISTEN/FEEL/KNOW what He is wanting you to speak.

I will add one more off-the-wall point.... ENGLISH is a tongue. I have spoken in English before with every bit as much spiritual force as I have in tongues. It's not the TONGUE...it's the SPIRIT that matters. When He speaks, whether in English, other tongues of men, or tongues of angels, it has all the power of heaven on it, and it will do the will of God, for it is the WORD of God being spoken.

Just my experience. I hope you can get something useful from this.

God bless.

Wow!

Acts-celerater Posts: 902 **7/31/12 9:54 pm**

Thank you so much Herman, Randy, Eddie and Aaron. This is why I love Actscelerate! Your experiences and thoughts mirror many of my own. YOu have encouraged strengthened my faith. Thank you my brothers for taking the time to respond with such detail.
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"you should've seen it in color"

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But I am a little

Acts-celerater Posts: 902 **7/31/12 11:19 pm**

surprised that there haven't been more responses being this is a "Pentecostal" board.
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"you should've seen it in color"

"Don't taze me bro!"

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **7/31/12 11:39 pm**

I don't know Curt, some of us are still learning after 70+ years, so we just read at times. I enjoy reading things that explain things that happened to me thru the years and I was truthfully puzzled. Sometimes I get the answers here. To me that is neat. Smile

I get that, "HEY THAT WAS IT!" feeling. Shocked

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Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **8/1/12 7:37 am**

Some of us see the thread going a certain direction and don't agree with those observations and don't want to start arguing the same arguments that have been debated on this board time and time again like... does the Holy Ghost indwell folks at repentance? Is tongues the Initial evidence? Is the Holy Ghost infilling absolutely essential to successful walk with the Lord? etc.
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Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/1/12 7:39 am**

There is no arguing or debating my experience. You can debate my philosophy all you want. That's fine. You can't win a debate concerning my experience. It is what it is.

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2118 **8/1/12 7:50 am**

Holy Spirit Baptism

Friendly Face Posts: 168 **8/1/12 9:05 am**

The church has made us believe that the baptism is something too complicated. We have not taught our people, that even though it is a supernatural gift, it causes the individual to respond. Living in this age of spiritual hype, by the leading television evangelists, who makes it seem everyone who comes down front receives the baptism. Then we judge ourselves by this. Look I had a pastor who taught me when you get a pair of shoes, the tongue comes with it, but you have to put it on. We need people to seek for the Holy Ghost baptism, and tongues will come. However, we must be holy.....to receive the gift. We want a fast move of God, when some times there are situations in the life of the believer that God is working on, before he can baptize the believer with the Holy Ghost.
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Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/1/12 9:20 am**

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **8/1/12 5:03 pm**

The Bible talks about the promise of the Spirit, but there is no promise that everyone will speak in tongues. Paul even asks, "Do all speak with tongues?" in a context where the implied answer is 'no.' (I Corinthians 12.)

I read something attributed to Watchman Nee on the subject that I found interested. He said that after they baptized new believers, the elders would lay hands on them. Sometimes the elders would get some words from the Lord about the believers future call or ministry. The elders would pray that they receive the Spirit and then send the newly baptized believers would be instructed to believe God for the manifestation in their lives.
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A thought on "initial evidence"

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **8/1/12 8:37 pm**

I know this thread is not particularly about this, but consider some things....

Because I was taught that tongues will accompany the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I received pretty much the SAME EXPERIENCE a number of times after salvation, but because I didn't ALSO speak in tongues, I had not confidence/faith that what I had experienced was the baptism. We'd usually say something like, "I got a good blessing tonight."

But if someone were NOT taught that tongues WILL/MUST accompany the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they might experience THE SAME THING as a person who receives the Holy Ghost...except the actual tongues.

Now, some of us would say, "Well, if they got everything except the tongues, then they didn't get the Holy Ghost." OK, I'd not have anything good to argue about that, I don't think. But for me, tongues was important mainly BECAUSE I was taught to associate it with the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The spiritual experience itself (the part besides the tongues) was very similar (identical?) to many other wonderful blessings I had received.

Are we interpreting the nearly identical event as the baptism of the Holy Ghost ONLY because tongues were included? Is that the only difference between what so many have experienced and what we have experienced?

I DO believe that because we hold that tongues are the initial evidence (and not the baptism itself), it gives us a greater confidence that we have received the Holy Ghost, since IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE in scripture, if ANY evidence was mentioned at all, tongues was included. And in NO CASE does it provide any notion that tongues was NOT part of the experience.

So, if we have this greater confidence that we have received the Holy Ghost--and in so doing implicitily accept ALL the spiritual gifts, since to accept tongues leaves us no room to reject the others--we walk in a greater assurance, we walk in a greater understanding of just what has been given to us.

For instance, if you are taught that tongues are not for today, then even if you have that same experience (minus the tongues) that I had, you will not acknowledge that any special event has taken place, NOR will you think that now you have access to the other gifts of the Spirit...since they are not for today.

Just my thoughts.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **8/2/12 6:28 am**

Aaron, I think in all cases we forget that the tongues follow the baptism in the Holy Spirit, not precede it.

It isn't that you speak in tongues and then you are baptized in the Spirit.

It is, you are baptized in the Spirit, first, then the tongues follow the baptism.

Maybe we are getting the cart before the horse and looking at the wrong thing in the wrong order?
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