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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | (Chuckle). I obviously disagree with your assessment of what it means to be a classic trinitarian. The Nicene Creed plainly states that the Son was of one substance with the Father. Modalism was an earlier tangent the church had already rejected long before Nicea. |
Modalism has nothing to do with this. The Trinity doctrine CLEARLY states a belief in one "HE". The wording of the creeds can easily be interpreted to back that up. In fact, that is what the creeds are referring to by saying Jesus is of the same "substance" of the Father. The councils were trying to make it clear that they were not teaching a belief that the "persons" were only "one" in the sense of agreement, but rather one one is actual substance. The word "substance" is defined.....
that of which a thing consists; physical matter or material: form and substance.
Now the creedal explanation is not perfect. It leaves allot of questions unanswered. However, one thing is clear. They believed that God was a BEING, a HE. And since God is a HE, then it does make this topic of communication within the being of this HE an issue that must be considered.
Are you saying, that from your understanding of the Trinity, that God is not really a HE?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 10:06 am
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Christlaw |
I disagree with your interpretation of the creed. Father, Son and Spirit are each referred to personally and distinct as "He" or "Himself" in the New Testament.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 10:11 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
| Christlaw wrote: | | A person is an individual self with his own mind, will, emotions, identity, etc. it is not clear how the Oneness view has any advantage at all over the trinitarian view. |
So since there are 3 person in the Trinitarian view of God... and you agree a person has their own will and mind.... then there are 3 different wills within God????? 3 Different Identities within God???? 3 Different Minds within God?????
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Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
10/3/12 10:13 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | I disagree with your interpretation of the creed. Father, Son and Spirit are each referred to personally and distinct as "He" or "Himself" in the New Testament. |
Again, none of that changes the fact that God is a "HE", a "being". What you stated is the crux of this issue. How does it all jive? And though deny it as you may, both Trinity and Oneness camps must wrestle with this issue.
Again I ask you, do you view God as a "He"?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 10:21 am
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Christlaw |
The Son voluntarily submitted his will to the Father, as Scripture plainly states. He could of his own self do nothing, but only what He saw the Father doing. The Holy Spirit likewise, is sent by the Father to glorify the Son, and does not speak on His own authority. Paul refers to the Spirit as having a mind and a will. Such plain scriptural facts are only problematic for modalists.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 10:22 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | The Son voluntarily submitted his will to the Father, as Scripture plainly states. He could of his own self do nothing, but only what He saw the Father doing. The Holy Spirit likewise, is sent by the Father to glorify the Son, and does not speak on His own authority. Paul refers to the Spirit as having a mind and a will. Such plain scriptural facts are only problematic for modalists. |
Again, this is there is no need to explain your views. We get it. This is not a trinity/oneness debate. We are discussing a common, seeming problem that both camps share, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Why won't you answer my question concerning whether or not God is a "He"? That is a basic Bible truth. Yes, this "He" has some mysterious things going on within his being. Nobody denies that. We may come to slightly different conclusions on how to best describe those mysteries, but we both acknowledge them. We also both have the same problem when discussing "Who was Jesus parying to? Was he talking to himself,etc"
| Quote: | 1 Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him.
2 Truly he is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. (Psalm 62:1-2) |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 10:33 am
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InspiredHillbilly |
| Christlaw wrote: | | The Son voluntarily submitted his will to the Father, as Scripture plainly states. He could of his own self do nothing, but only what He saw the Father doing. The Holy Spirit likewise, is sent by the Father to glorify the Son, and does not speak on His own authority. Paul refers to the Spirit as having a mind and a will. Such plain scriptural facts are only problematic for modalists. |
FYI... I"m not a modalist... Modalism ascribes to the "faces" or "masks" teaching... and that I do not.
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ
The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret... |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2118
10/3/12 10:42 am
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Christlaw |
Skeptic, I was responding to IH's question in that post, but in any case, one would think it quite obvious that three persons is not one "He." Your oneness view actually is precisely what your question concerns.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 11:04 am
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Christlaw |
| Christlaw wrote: | | I disagree with your interpretation of the creed. Father, Son and Spirit are each referred to personally and distinct as "He" or "Himself" in the New Testament. |
Please read again the above response I gave you, RS.
Thanks.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 11:06 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | Skeptic, I was responding to IH's question in that post, but in any case, one would think it quite obvious that three persons is not one "He." Your oneness view actually is precisely what your question concerns. |
You are the first Trinitarian I've ever met that denies that God is a "He". I came to the Lord in 1980 in a Trinitarian Pentecostal church, was licensed with the AoG for many years, and earned by Bach's degree from a trintarian Bible college. I was never taught as you are espousing. This certainly is not a Oneness/Trinity debate, but rather it seems to be turning into a debate on what exactly Orthodox trintarianism is.
I see you had nothing to say about Psalm 62:1-2....
| Quote: | 1 Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him.
2 Truly he is my rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. |
I could quote literally thousands of verse like this one.
But since you seem determined to create a distraction with continual references to the Oneness doctrine, I'll defer to Doyle's wishes.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 11:16 am
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Christlaw |
Too funny. I have never heard any trinitarian say anything other than one God in three persons. To say God is only one "He" is to deny the distinct personhood of each.
As to the scripture reference you say I didn't respond to, as I have said repeatedly now, the trinitarian view explains the scriptures perfectly well, accounting for both the oneness and the threeness (triunity) of God. It is never inappropriate to refer to Father, Son, or Spirit as "He" or "Himself," since the scriptures themselves are replete with such references.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 11:31 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quote: | | Too funny. I have never heard any trinitarian say anything other than one God in three persons. |
Since when is the above point in question?
| Quote: |
To say God is only one "He" is to deny the distinct personhood of each. |
Since when? I've been researching this and you are most definitely in the minority among trinitarians. For instance, here is what one site said...
| Quote: | | The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how He relates to us, and how we should relate to Him. But it is also something that raises many difficult questions. How can God be both one and three? Is the Trinity a contradiction? If Jesus is God, why do the Gospels record instances where He prayed to God? |
Continuing, you said...
| Quote: | | As to the scripture reference you say I didn't respond to, as I have said repeatedly now, the trinitarian view explains the scriptures perfectly well, accounting for both the oneness and the threeness (triunity) of God. It is never inappropriate to refer to Father, Son, or Spirit as "He" or "Himself," since the scriptures themselves are replete with such references. |
About the part in bold, who is denying this? And certainly the Trinity doctrine at least attempts to explain how God is three yet one. Nevertheless, the fact remains that since Trintarians (present company excepted) believe that God is a He, they still have the same problem in being questioned, "Is God talking to himself?" The fact that you try to explain it doesn't change that fact.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 11:46 am
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Christlaw |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: |
Since when? I've been researching this and you are most definitely in the minority among trinitarians. For instance, here is what one site said...
| Quote: | | The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how He relates to us, and how we should relate to Him. But it is also something that raises many difficult questions. How can God be both one and three? Is the Trinity a contradiction? If Jesus is God, why do the Gospels record instances where He prayed to God? |
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Like I said, it is always appropriate to refer to God as "He," just as it is appropriate to refer to any of the three as "He."
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | Continuing, you said...
| Quote: | | As to the scripture reference you say I didn't respond to, as I have said repeatedly now, the trinitarian view explains the scriptures perfectly well, accounting for both the oneness and the threeness (triunity) of God. It is never inappropriate to refer to Father, Son, or Spirit as "He" or "Himself," since the scriptures themselves are replete with such references. |
About the part in bold, who is denying this? And certainly the Trinity doctrine at least attempts to explain how God is three yet one. Nevertheless, the fact remains that since Trintarians (present company excepted) believe that God is a He, they still have the same problem in being questioned, "Is God talking to himself?" The fact that you try to explain it doesn't change that fact. |
Jesus, God the Son is talking to God the Father. Your assumption about what it means to refer to God as "He" (a singular being) is just, that, your assumption.
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Amen.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 11:49 am
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Christlaw |
I never said anyone was denying the appropriateness of referring to the Father, Son and Spirit as "He," though from what I'm hearing you say, you would deny that they are individual persons (more than one "He"). I was simply stating the fact that each individually are referred to in Scripture as "He."
As in, "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirits, that we are the children of God."
And, "I will pray the Father, and He will send you another comforter, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive."
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 11:53 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | I never said anyone was denying that. I was simply stating the fact that each individually are referred to in Scripture as "He."
As in, "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirits, that we are the children of God."
And, "I will pray the Father, and He will send you another comforter, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive." |
But as I understand, and was taught the doctrine of the Trinity, all these distinctions/persons/manifestations are within the being of the He.
Definitions of the trinity by a cross-section of conservative theologians
| Quote: | The doctrine of the trinity means that within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission <Matt. 28:19> and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians <2 Cor. 13:14>.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
(Copyright (C) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers) |
| Quote: | The Christian doctrine (of the trinity) is: (1) That there is only one God, one divine nature and being. (2) This one divine Being is tripersonal, involving the distinctions of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (3) These three are joint partakers of the same nature and majesty of God. This doctrine is preeminently one of revelation. And although it brings before us one of the great mysteries of revelation and transcends finite comprehension, it is essential to the understanding of the Scriptures, and, as we shall see, has its great value and uses.
(from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
(originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (C) 1988.) |
| Quote: | While there is only one divine nature, there are three substances, or persons, called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who possess, not a similar, but the same numerical essence, and the distinction between them is not merely nominal but real.
(John Dick, Theology) |
| Quote: | God is one... He subsists in a personality which is threefold, indicated by relationship as Father and Son; by a mode of being as Spirit; and by the different parts taken by the Godhead in manifestation and in the work of redemption.
(Schofield, Reference Bible) |
| Quote: | There is but one God; but this one God makes Himself known to man as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and they are separate personalities.
(Torrey, What the Bible Teaches) |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 12:00 pm
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Christlaw |
That is interesting. My understanding of homoousion (the distinguishing term of the Nicene Creed) is that it means "of the same substance" or "of one substance." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homoousion
I suppose "being" may be substituted for "substance," but it seems to me that to refer to the Three as one being would be more modalistic, since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are revealed in Scripture as genuinely interacting with and relating to one another, not just one being talking to himself. All the older English translations of the Nicene Creed before the 1970s at least had "of one substance," and not "of one being," which is less susceptible to confusion.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 12:08 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | That is interesting. My understanding of homoousion (the distinguishing term of the Nicene Creed) is that it means "of the same substance" or "of one substance." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homoousion
I suppose "being" may be substituted for "substance," but it seems to me that to refer to the Three as one being would be more modalistic, since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are revealed in Scripture as genuinely interacting with and relating to one another, not just one being talking to himself. All the older English translations of the Nicene Creed before the 1970s at least had "of one substance," and not "of one being," which is less susceptible to confusion. |
Of course you and I don't think God talks to himself. Neither Oneness or Trinity believes that. I was just pointing out that some will accuse us both of such.
Just to keep this discussion on track, I refer back to my very first comment on this thread in answer to Casey's comments....
| Quote: | Yes, those who believe in Christ's deity (no matter the label you attach to it) have to wrestle with these questions.
First of all, God is a "He", and indivisible "being". Yet this He is triune in his revelation to us. Some call the trifold way he reveals himself to us "persons", "manifestations", or other terms.
So when we see interaction between the three aspects (persons/manifestations, etc) of this He/being, is he talking to himself? Are his three "selves" having a conversation with each other? Again, ALL Christians who believe there are distinctions within God have to wrestle with this. Yet some have the audacity to poke fun at the others interpretation as if they themselves don't have the same questions to answer, and as if though their own beliefs don't produce the same questions. |
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 12:11 pm
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Christlaw |
And again, the 'problems' you raise are not problems for trinitarianism. I have never heard any trinitarian having a problem simply saying the Son prayed to the Father, that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit, etc.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 12:34 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Christlaw wrote: | | And again, the 'problems' you raise are not problems for trinitarianism. I have never heard any trinitarian having a problem simply saying the Son prayed to the Father, that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit, etc. |
I've never heard any Oneness adherent having a problem simply saying the Son prayed to the Father, that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit, etc.
The problem is not what we feel about ourselves. It's how do we defend this position from attacks from JW's, Mormons, Muslims. Unitarians, etc?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
10/3/12 12:45 pm
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Christlaw |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: |
Just to keep this discussion on track, I refer back to my very first comment on this thread in answer to Casey's comments....
| Quote: | Yes, those who believe in Christ's deity (no matter the label you attach to it) have to wrestle with these questions.
First of all, God is a "He", and indivisible "being". Yet this He is triune in his revelation to us. Some call the trifold way he reveals himself to us "persons", "manifestations", or other terms.
So when we see interaction between the three aspects (persons/manifestations, etc) of this He/being, is he talking to himself?
Are his three "selves" having a conversation with each other?
Again, ALL Christians who believe there are distinctions within God have to wrestle with this.
Yet some have the audacity to poke fun at the others interpretation as if they themselves don't have the same questions to answer, and as if though their own beliefs don't produce the same questions. |
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It is not clear how the above 'problems' you say we must wrestle with are problems in trinitarian theology. Trinitarianism affirms that each individual person within the Godhead speak to and relate to each other as distinct persons. It is only something to wrestle with for those who deny the triune nature of God.
_________________
If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 349
10/3/12 1:01 pm
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