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C. Moody suggests COG ministers tithe to HQ

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **3/5/13 7:12 pm**

In a post in another thread where Travis Johnson suggested having ministers sign a "No-Compete" clause, Chris Moody responded and shared his desire that ministers sending their tithes to COG Headquarters, be "discussed." Following is his post:

"The COG is undergoing some major financial cuts. We must look at our entire structure. I would personally like to see us discuss the possibilities of making the credentialed ministers pay tithes into headquarters. Notice I said discuss.........This is happening in other denominational circles. These discussions may be happening or perhaps have already happened. I am looking to dialogue, not stir up trouble or cause confusion. This may not be the route we should take. I simply want to have a discussion. This is not an anti COG bashing session. Lets look at some of the possibilities.

Pros I see:

1. Every minister would be required to pay tithes. Overseers, Evangelist, professors, pastors, missionaries anyone with credentials. No one would be allowed to put tithe money in some other ministry project. No excuses of a tough economy, or tired of paying the "denominational tax." I believe this would give extreme credibility and restore integrity to the ministry of the COG.

2. No more of this discussion of tithe of tithe.... We in essence work for the COG and we would pay our tithes to our denomination.

3. More money for the local church to plant churches, do missions, etc.

4. I believe it would be an increase in revenue. Again this is why I would like for us to discuss and dialogue about this.

5. Our layman would see this as a major step forward, and world missions giving would go through the roof.

Example: Let's say we have 15,000 ministers and the average salary is $25,000. That would be $37,500,000. Divided by two is $18,750,000 to state headquarters and then $18,750,000 to general headquarters. Again these are presumptuous numbers. I have no idea how many we have. I do think the 25,000 salary is conservative. This may not be feasible. I am not presuming to be the voice here, but this would at least be some good points of discussion.

BTW I hope you guys are having fun at Hydrate. Wish I was there. Too much going on and things are extremely tight financially for us. Having to tighten up the old belt. I am reading some really positive comments via social media."n
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Re: C. Moody suggests COG ministers tithe to HQ

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **3/5/13 7:43 pm**

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **3/5/13 8:19 pm**

The idea is similar to the A/G's

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4682 **3/5/13 9:02 pm**

I don't think a straight across the board 10% tithe will work because it sets up Cleveland for good months & bad months ...kinda like now Rolling Eyes

But if we made it a fixed dollar amount I would be in favor of that.

Churches with multiple staff members or multiple members who are CoG ministers might feel a pinch but I think we could make it happen.

A/G's in So/Cal pay about $195 a month for O.B. credentials & about $25 less for licensed ministers.

You're going to have a large group of elderly ministers who have a small fixed income who can't afford $250 a month & you're going to have tons of guys who are going to claim they don't make enough income to tithe $250 a month to HQ. So you'll have to find a dollar amount that is fair similar to the A/G plan which also involves church money contributions.

When I was a pastor in the A/G I sent in my monthly tithe fee which was about $155 a month & my church would also sponsor certain projects each year.

Yes we saved a lot of money each month at the local level based on the CoG ToT plan but we still met the needs of the national & state HQ by contributing each month to certain ministries. Each year we would decide to help out youth or men's/women's ministry, Boys & Girls Missionary Crusades or we would select a percentage of our local budget (2 or 3%) to be sent to HQ for the sole purpose of helping out with the general budget.

The whole process takes a lot of cooperation & honesty. I remember lots of guys telling stories about how they couldn't send in their tithe to HQ but they had no problem driving expensive new cars & staying in expensive hotels while at church events.

Many times we had debates from the main floor about how certain guys couldn't afford to pay the HQ their tithe. The facts are that many guys do not practice the gift of giving even when it comes to their local church.

I love the idea of tying the tithe money to the minister's credentials in order to help them remain accountable to the denomination. This helps to serve many things the least of which helps to serve the finances of our HQ's & to help keep our ministry credentials in line with our financial covenant with the denomination.

More later.

.
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01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **3/5/13 10:18 pm**

It actually sounds like a pretty good idea but a little confusing. Would this be on the secular job? on the tithe or both?

I cannot remember what I did? Is the TOT considered the pastors tithe on his tithes received now? I don't remember thinking about it, but it seems under the present system the tithe is paid on the Tithe received. I'm probably confused. My records have long since been lost and I cannot remember. I know I paid on offerings and secular work....

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I pastored in the A/G for 12 years

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **3/5/13 11:09 pm**

during that time I was required to pay $20/month to Springfield for headquarters support. That was $240/year just to national office. There was also an annual credential renewal fee that went to the national office of $50 (from over 30,000 credentialed ministers).

In addition to that monthly support for the national office, I was required to pay 75% of my tithes from all sources of income. This check went to the state office (in my case Indiana and later Maryland). I think they divided the amount between the state and national offices in some manner.

As a result, only 25% of my tithe went to my local church, plus whatever additional offerings I gave to my local church.

Pastors of smaller churches resented sending 75% of their tithes to the state and national office. They felt the money was needed more at home, especially if they had small budgets and it was difficult to meet the bills. Many of us did not feel we got anything from our state or local offices except a tithing envelope and a magazine once a month. Eventually, the state office did begin holding workshops for pastors at state expense.

As far as local church planting funds were concerned, in Indiana we had a program called Indiana Advance that was connected between the state office and the local churches, the ministers' tithes were not included in that budget. Local churches sent offerings for church planting on a regular basis, but it was purely on a volunteer basis.

I have been in the COG for ten years now. Five as a non-credentialed member serving as an unofficial associate pastor and five as an ordained bishop. I much prefer tithing to my local church and letting the church tithe to the state and national offices. To me, that just seems like a more natural flow biblically.

I do not agree with the non-forgiveness of tithe of tithe, however, I feel that the policy chokes the life out of the local church, especially if they have had unfortunate events take place beyond the control of the congregation. A new pastor should be able to start his ministry in a church with a clean slate, especially if the church is already burdened with a mortgage or other local obligations. Demanding payment with no forgiveness sounds uncannily like the unmerciful servant who choked his fellow servant for a few dollars after being forgiven a much larger debt by his master.
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Re: C. Moody suggests COG ministers tithe to HQ

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5161 **3/6/13 2:27 pm**

Re: C. Moody suggests COG ministers tithe to HQ

Hey, DOC Posts: 81 **3/6/13 8:58 pm**

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **3/6/13 9:33 pm**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **3/6/13 10:05 pm**

roughrider stated:

"You mean there are pastors who make $800 a week?"

Suggested salary for a church of 1-25 members is $760 per week. I would hate to be under that load in a church that small. Rolling Eyes

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4682 **3/6/13 10:41 pm**

The facts are that there are way more ministers than there are churches & as time goes by there will continue to be numerous ministers added to the ranks vs slow growth with viable churches added to the ToT rolls.

The day is approaching soon where the income for HQ's will need to be derived from a strong source & that source will be in licensed ministers.

All specialty ministers will be added to this list as well so it's possible that our numbers could be 20,000-25,000 licensed ministers who are subject to giving a regular set amount.

If for the sake of discussion you set this at a percentage it allows for, shall we say, 'justified tampering' with the figures. A set dollar amount allows for only 2 things: a.) pay the fee or b.) figure out a way to plead hardship which about 15% will do & another 5% will be late or non-compliant for different reasons.

A set dollar amount allows for a budget to be solid and dependable. Even if you have 25,000 ministers you're going to have trouble with collecting from about 15-20% at all times. There will be hardships of every kind so your budget has to be based on receiving about 80% of the anticipated numbers because a certain % will be in flux at all times. I know these numbers to be true because I used o set on a board that had oversight while in the A/G.

Look at this math example:
As an example if O.B. paid a fee of $225.00 a month & all other specialized/licensed ministers were $195.00 per month & taking into consideration that about 21,250 of your 25,000 ministers paid every month we would see about $4,525,000.00 per month or a little over $54,000,000.00 per year. This is based on O.B. being about 60% of the ministerial ranks.

No matter how you look at it the future of financial stability is going to have to be tied to the economy of the ministerial fee because churches are going to be able to tamper with their tithe money until finally the ToT will become antiquated & no longer able to sustain the good ship on Keith/25th.

.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"

Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com

Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on?

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/6/13 11:36 pm**

Of course the question is, "Is a top-heavy ship seaworthy?"

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **3/7/13 3:13 am**

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/7/13 6:57 am**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/7/13 9:01 am**

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/7/13 1:15 pm**

Acts-celerater Posts: 975 **3/7/13 1:19 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/7/13 1:55 pm**

The observation is not original with me. I first read that distinction while I was pastoring in the A/G, in Edith Blumhofer's two-volume history of the Assemblies of God. I will try to find the exact quote from her book this afternoon when I can get back to my office.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **3/7/13 2:00 pm**

Chain,

As far as the "pastor factory" comment goes, I don't think that is a function of the A/G structure as such. I'm pretty sure the A/G has the amount of credentialed ministers it has for much the same reasons that the CoG has the amount of credentialed ministers it has. Men and women feel called to the ministry, they receive the encouragement and endorsement of their pastor and local church, and so they pursue credentials. If a man can get the approval of his pastor and two other ordained ministers, passes the test, and is approved by the denominational HQ, he gets credentialed. Beyond that, there are no guaranteed appointments in the A/G that I know of, except perhaps for tenured professors at their colleges and seminary, if they grant tenure.

The United Methodist Church, on the other hand, does have a guaranteed appointment system for its ordained clergy, which makes the guild a little harder to break into I suppose.

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **3/7/13 4:36 pm**

Pastors are a dime a dozen in the COG. There are many more pastors than churches in the SE United States. Rolling Eyes