Actscelerate.com

I say we throw her out!

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **11/20/12 7:43 am**

Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law ? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants : one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves ; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free ; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR ; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR ; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say ? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Paul likens the 2 covenants (old covenant/Moses and new covenant/Jesus) to Abraham's wives - Sarah and Hagar.

The old covenant was a list of laws that people had to keep to be right with God. If they broke one single rule, they were guilty of breaking all the rules. If you kept all the rules, you got a blessing, if you broke one of the rules you got a long list of curses. To keep the blessing coming and the curse off of you, you had to offer animals as sacrifices to pay for your failures. The people had to come back for forgiveness again and again because these sacrifices could not take away their sins.

The Jews operated under this system for 1,500 years.

God says to CAST THIS SYSTEM OUT!

Our new covenant is righteousness by faith. Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf and made a perfect once-for-all sacrifice for all sins that have or will ever be committed (all past and future sins were taken away). Faith in His sacrifice has taken away ALL of our sins, put us in right-standing with God, opened up all blessings to us (peace, prosperity, healing, deliverance, wisdom, etc.) and freed us from all of the curses of the old system. If that weren't enough, faith in His sacrifice has changed us! We are new, born of God, changed in our spirits or inner man -- created in righteousness and true holiness unto good works with God's laws written on our hearts, not stones. God has empowered us in our inner man to change our behavior in our outer man.

We no longer earn blessings by keeping rules or tithing. We live under God's unlimited love, favor and blessing because Jesus' earned all of this and we are in Him and one with Him by faith.

So, preaching that says we earn God's blessings or experience God's curses is old covenant preaching and needs to be CAST OUT!

Preaching that implies that our sins have not been taken away by the Lamb of God is old covenant preaching and needs to be CAST OUT!

Now, we discipline our outer man (bodies) to obey our inner man.

Now, we fill our minds with truth (renew them) so that we can experience more and more of the freedom we enjoy in our inner man--because it's the truth you know that makes you free. We don't fill our minds with old covenant teaching on earned blessings or temporary, fleeting forgiveness-- we CAST IT OUT. We fill our minds with new covenant teaching on the gift of everlasting, established righteousness, blessings, salvation and His Spirit all because of Jesus!

Now, we pray and live so that His kingdom will come and His will will be done on earth and it is in Heaven.

Beware of old covenant principles and teaching -- Paul says throw them out!
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

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Throw The Baby Out With The Bathwater?

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **11/20/12 11:45 am**

If we throw "The Law out," does that mean we throw "all" of the Law out?

Would it be wise to throw out the 10 Commandments or the social laws on conduct in such cases as rape, incest etc?

How much of the Old Testament is "The Law" and how much is history and poetry and songs of praise like in the Book of Psalms? One could throw out "The Law" but not all of the Old Testament. Or, is there so much of "The Law" included in the lives and history and thinking of the Old Testament until one would have to throw it all out to rid themselves of "The Law."

One of the major problems becomes "Who Chooses" what is to be thrown out and what is to be kept. For example, we today definitely do cling to the 10 Commandments. Without them, society breaks down quickly.

Who chooses what is thrown out and what carries over into the New Testament? We COG folk have in our teachings "We take the New Testament as our "only" rule of faith and practice."

I like that statement but does that mean the Old Testament is null and void? Not challenging the top post of this thread. It has some very interesting thoughts but am just wondering how far does the "Throwing Out" go and who decides what is thrown out and what is kept?

Doyle
writedoyle@yahoo.com
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The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Re: Throw The Baby Out With The Bathwater?

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **11/20/12 3:16 pm**

Good word.

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3063 **11/20/12 3:37 pm**

I think it is important to remember the context. Paul is writing specifically to Gentiles who are, under pressure by traditional Jews, also practicing Torah as a means of justification.

For 1st Century Jews, Torah adherence was not about being "good" or even making it to some heaven-like afterlife (such a concept would have been quite foreign). At its giving, the Law was viewed as a means of keeping the covenant, not earning it! The covenant preceded the Law by 430 years. Paul makes this very statement in Galatians. The Law came later, as a means to keep the people in covenant. They never viewed it as a meritorious system whereby they earned God's favor. They had God's favor; now it was just a matter of how to live properly in that covenant.

For them, Torah separated the Jews as God's people. It was a marker of who was "right" and who was "wrong." The Jews longed for they day when they would finally be justified- that is to say, when Yahweh Himself would rule Israel and prove once and for all that they had always been "right," and all the pagan and ungodly nations had been "wrong." These Jews had a hard time grasping the notion that Torah is no longer the means of that distinction. Now, it any of those who have faith in the Messiah Jesus.

In Galatians, Paul is specifically addressing the Jews that want to impose this burden, and the Gentiles who were subsequently being persuaded. I LOVE the analogy Paul uses of Hagar and Sarah! The Jews were holding on to the temporary umbrella of Torah. So much so, they ran the danger of missing the true fulfillment of the promise in the Messiah Jesus.

Torah was a schoolmaster (pedagogos). This was a servant who saw the child through the school years, preparing him for the time when he would receive the inheritance of his father. When that time came, the pedagogos would no longer be necessary. BUT, the habits, lessons, knowledge, etc. that he had imparted to the young child would be carried throughout his life as he lived with the inheritance of his father. This was Torah's role!

The Jews (and Gentiles) that appealed to staying under the pedagogos, seemed as absurd to Paul as an adult who will still need a babysitter! The inheritance was Jesus! Throw out the babysitter, embrace the full promise!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 3:44 pm**

There is nothing in either Testament which says future sins are already pre-forgiven or taken away. Only past sins which have been repented of are covered/atoned/taken away.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 3:58 pm**

It is true that the Law of Moses has been done away with.

New Covenant Believers in the Messiah (which Messiah the Law and the Prophets pointed to) now have the Lawgiver Himself (the Spirit) living inside us, leading and guiding us in the path of righteousness.

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **11/20/12 7:28 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 7:34 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 7:36 pm**

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **11/20/12 7:43 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3063 **11/20/12 7:48 pm**

You use the cross as being a "once and for all" act; you say "he bore our sins" instead of he bears our sins. The writer of Hebrews, however, does not seem to view the cross as a once and all event; but something that stands eternal, and what we do with it determines its effectiveness in our lives. I would love to hear you address this.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 8:02 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 8:06 pm**

The question is rightly raised, "What precisely did Jesus refer to when He said 'It is finished?'"

If what He finished was that all sin, past, present, and future, was paid for, unconditional universalism by definition must follow. All the sins of each and every individual of all time, even the sin of unbelief and the supposedly unpardonable sin which Jesus himself said was an eternal sin that has no forgiveness, were paid for, if the sin debt payment theory were true.

Unfortunately for that theory and for those who hold to it, there is simply no place in Scripture where Jesus' death is ever said to be a payment of debt, which actually would exclude forgiveness altogether, since payment of debt and forgiveness of debt are mutually exclusive categories.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 8:12 pm**

The Bible says Jesus paid a ransom, which anyone can see is quite different from paying a debt, much less, paying the penalty, which both Scripture and Logic also deny He paid or could pay.

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3063 **11/20/12 8:13 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 8:17 pm**

An advocate of the sin debt payment theory should change the words of the Lord's Prayer from, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors," to, "You paid for our debts, and paid for the debts of our debtors, so we now owe no one a thing, not even you, Father."

How forgiveness factors into the sin debt payment theory (and its close cousin, the penal substitution theory) is not evident.

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **11/20/12 8:46 pm**

Doyle wrote:

The 10 Commandments are not The Law...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **11/20/12 9:36 pm**

While the 10 Commandments are included WITH the Law, they actually precede the Law by CENTURIES.

For instance, the Sabbath Day was incorporated on Day Seven. The Law simply codified it and, in doing so, began a journey that would eventually ensnare God's freedom in man's web...until Jesus came.

So, yes, THROW THE WOMAN OUT! Even if you throw out the 10 commandments as given to Moses, there are still scriptures that let us know that, prior to and separate from the Law, that these things were issues God cared deeply about.

We are free to keep any part of the Law we desire, I suppose (except sacrifice, since it would be useless and cruel if it serves no purpose). I imagine it's a wonderful idea to not eat pork (something I wish I could live up to), but you don't HAVE to.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **11/20/12 10:20 pm**

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **11/21/12 8:05 am**