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Isa 58:12 |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: |
Others, PS 135:4, Eccl 2:8, Titus 2:14, 1Pet 2:9. So, in all Texts of the Bible, His "peculiar" people keep His Laws/ Commandments 😋
That goes against Brad what you say about the Law says about people
Shalom, shalom |
So you mention Titus 2:14 Which you claim means Jesus purified us by the law/Torah? That is troubling and sad. (If I misread your intent, I apologize)
Titus 2:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. |
Shalom uncle jd lol, yes I did reference Titus 2:14, I'm not claiming that Y'shua purified us through Torah/Law at all. This verse in Titus flows with Deut 26:18, let's read the verse with meanings of a couple words
& The L-rd has "avouched" u this day to be His "peculiar people" as He has Promised u, & that u should "keep" / shamar (to hedge about/guard/generally, to protect/ to attend) all His Commandments...
Titus 2:14: Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all "iniquity" (or "lawless" deed) & purify unto Himself a "peculiar people" zealous of "good deeds" (of keeping/shamar/guarding His Commandments Deut 26:18 😉.
2:14 goes with 3:8, good works unto G-d by keeping His Commandments/Law 😊. Hope that helps.
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/1/18 8:30 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | The reference to Romans 10 nails it. For being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Isa said in another thread that his righteousness is based on Christ, and that he keeps the law because he is saved, not to be saved. But what of Christians who do not keep the law of Moses? Will they go to Heaven? If they will not, then it is clear that keeping the law is required for salvation (and therefore for righteousness) according to that view. |
Shalom dave, let's read Rom 10:4 together, & we will fix the mistranslated word "end" to g to the True meaning of the verse 😉
For Messiah is the "end" tells "goal" of the Torah/Law for Righteousness to everyone that believes. Y'shua us the goal of the Law, not the end of it, because is an Everlasting Covenant 😊
So let's back it up in Rom 10:2..."not" according to Knowledge"..(Prov 3). 10:3:for "they" being ignorant (no Knowledge) and going about to establish "their own" Righteousness, (Matt 5:20, 23:3) have "not" submitted themselves unto the Righteousness of G-d Deut 6:25 ☺
So u c Dave, not taking about me lol, sorry. If you really want to get technical about it, not only did the religious leaders in the Y'shua's day not get it and they were ignorant, because they establish their own righteousness through their actions, what about today's religious leaders who have created their own way and rules and regulations & don't keep Torah which is the Instructions of our Creator because of their ignorance? 🤔
Something to think about, shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/1/18 8:55 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Paul repeatedly called himself a servant/slave (duolos) of Christ Jesus. Romans 6 talks about how we are now slaves of righteousness and slaves of God, rather than slaves to sin. Paul elsewhere refers to himself as a prisoner of Jesus Christ. If it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me.  |
That's 100% correct Dave, but I don't think you know what you meant LOL that holds my position. Slaves of righteousness and slaves of G-d. What is Righteousness? Deut 6:25: and it shall be for our Righteousness "if we" observe to do "all these Commandments" before the L-rd "our" G-d as He commanded "us" 😋
Is He ur G-d Dave? 😊😉 & Yes dave, u said it correctly, if it was good enough for Paul, who was a Pharisee of Pharisees & new the law / Torah up and down and lived it, that is good enough for me lol lol😄
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/1/18 9:03 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Shalom dave, let's read Rom 10:4 together, & we will fix the mistranslated word "end" to g to the True meaning of the verse 😉 |
That's a hard pass for me. Thanks though. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/1/18 9:03 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Shalom dave, let's read Rom 10:4 together, & we will fix the mistranslated word "end" to g to the True meaning of the verse 😉 |
That's a hard pass for me. Thanks though. |
Lol, why is that my friend, that's truly what the verse is saying you should do word studies you be truly amazed what we've all been missing
And it's a lot easier if you let the Bible interpret the Bible 😃
Shalom 😇
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/1/18 9:10 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | Isn't it nice to have both the left and right ditch represented on Acts again? If we get too close to one, the other will call us out! |
I disagree with a lot of what Brad posts, although I really appreciate his rightful denounciation of the works-based try-harder use-these-principles evangelicalism that gets preached so much today (not just by old school folks, but ESPECIALLY by attractional megachurches). With that said, I can't in good conscience agree with Brad being the yin to Isa's yang. I'm confident Brad is a brother, despite my opinion that he at points seriously errant in his beliefs. With due respect to Isa, who is surely a nice guy, that is not at all clear with him. |
please don't think I'm questioning anyone's salvation here, but yeah I lean closer to Brad's views than to the other's. I really feel pretty close to the middle when these 2 go at it though  |
R u guys talking about me? 😶
Lol
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/1/18 9:35 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Shalom dave, let's read Rom 10:4 together, & we will fix the mistranslated word "end" to g to the True meaning of the verse 😉 |
That's a hard pass for me. Thanks though. |
Lol, why is that my friend, that's truly what the verse is saying you should do word studies you be truly amazed what we've all been missing
And it's a lot easier if you let the Bible interpret the Bible 😃
Shalom 😇 |
What's your interpretation of these:
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Are we under law?
Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Have we died to the law?
Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Have we been released from the law?
Do we serve in oldness of the letter or not?
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.â€
What law is Paul talking about? How does the Bible interpret the Law, the letter?
Doesn't the Bible call "the Law" the law that said "thou shalt not covet?"
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
Does the law give sin "opportunity?"
Does sin die "apart from the law?"
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
Does the law cause sin to revive and kill us?
Isn't the law the law of sin and death?
Rom 7:10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Does the law result in death?
Does the give sin the opportunity to kill me?
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Hasn't the law of the Spirit of life made us free from the law of sin and death Paul described a few verses earlier?
Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Isn't the law weak? Doesn't the writer of Hebrews call it "weak and useless" in Heb 7:18,19 and "obsolete" in Heb. 8:13?
Isn't the law weak through the flesh and aren't we those who don't walk according to the flesh?
Didn't Jesus offering, taking all sin into His flesh, allow God to condemn sin in the flesh?
So isn't sin dead, without dominion?
Aren't we now free from condemnation of the law of sin and death?
Rom 10:3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Are there 2 kinds of righteousness, your "own" (self-righteousness) and "God's?"
Did Christ end your "own" righteousness based on the law?
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
Doesn't the law say that a man can find life if he can do ALL that is written in the law?
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).†8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heartâ€â€”that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Isn't God's righteousness "based on faith, not our ability to do ALL that is written by Moses?"
Doesn't righteousness now result from believe in our heart?
Are we now saved by confessing with our mouths?
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.†12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€
Isn't this righteousness and life now for "whoever believes", even Greeks who don't do all that Moses wrote in the law?
2 Cor 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Has God made us adequate as ministers of the letter?
Does the letter give life or kill?
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
What is the letter that kills...the ministry of death?
What was in letters engraved on stones...the 10 commandments?
2 Cor 3 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
Isn't the letter the ministry of condemnation?
Is there any condemnation in Christ?
Doesn't the letter have "no glory?"
Isn't the letter the ministry whose glory "fades away?"
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/2/18 6:34 am
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Isa 58:12 |
Lol, brad, why all the questions at once brad? Lol I have no problem taking one two at a time but you know when people do that that the person that's asking all the questions will not be able to answer them all LOL I remember you doing this to me last time LOL LOL ðŸ˜. If you want to have a discussion about this which I do then let's just make short quick answers very simple 😃
So while you can condense your questions making them more accessible I will ask you this question: tell me what you think our Creator's Law's are for, death or life or both? Here's a hint, it's the same question for those who do not have Messiah 😉
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/2/18 7:21 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Lol, brad, why all the questions at once brad? Lol I have no problem taking one two at a time but you know when people do that that the person that's asking all the questions will not be able to answer them all LOL I remember you doing this to me last time LOL LOL ðŸ˜. If you want to have a discussion about this which I do then let's just make short quick answers very simple 😃 |
Why don't you pick one or two, then, and answer them?
You could start with the first two he asked.
1) Are we under law?
2) Have we died to the law?
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
I'd ask you this one as well:
Do you not know that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? (It's a question directed at those, like yourself, who know the law.) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/2/18 7:47 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Lol, brad, why all the questions at once brad? Lol I have no problem taking one two at a time but you know when people do that that the person that's asking all the questions will not be able to answer them all LOL I remember you doing this to me last time LOL LOL ðŸ˜. If you want to have a discussion about this which I do then let's just make short quick answers very simple 😃 |
Why don't you pick one or two, then, and answer them?
You could start with the first two he asked?
1) Are we under law?
2) Have we died to the law? |
Yes, we are under our creators instructions, Commandments, Laws.
& Yes, we have died to the law of sin and death Rom 8:2 when we realize our sinfulness, torahlessness, and we eef a Savior. So we ask the Creator to be in our lives and we repent of our sins, torahlessness, death to life
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/2/18 7:55 am
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Isa 58:12 |
[quote="Dave Dorsey"] | Isa 58:12 wrote: |
I'd ask you this one as well:
Do you not know that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? (It's a question directed at those, like yourself, who know the law.) |
Sorry I didn't see this but I'll answer it, if you're married Dave, those laws are binding. In America its laws are binding. The law / Torah / ketubah /marital contract is binding.
Deut 30:19-20:. I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death blessings and cursings therefore choose life that both you and your seed may live verse 20 that you may love the L-rd "your" G-d and that you may also "obey" His voice and that you make leave unto Him "for He is your life" and the length of your days that you may dwell in the land the L-rd swore on to your father's to Abraham to Isaac and to Jacob to give them
😇
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/2/18 8:04 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Sorry I didn't see this but I'll answer it, if you're married Dave, those laws are binding. In America its laws are binding. The law / Torah / ketubah /marital contract is binding. |
Yup, that's right... but, you're aware that these laws are binding on a person only as long as he lives, right?
To take your reference to marital law, as an example -- a woman will indeed be called an adulterous if she lives with another man while her husband is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from that law, and if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress. You realize this, right? That the law of marriage is binding on someone only as long as that person is alive?
Dead people aren't party to marriage covenants. You get that, right? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/2/18 8:42 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Sorry I didn't see this but I'll answer it, if you're married Dave, those laws are binding. In America its laws are binding. The law / Torah / ketubah /marital contract is binding. |
Yup, that's right... but, you're aware that these laws are binding on a person only as long as he lives, right?
To take your reference to marital law, as an example -- a woman will indeed be called an adulterous if she lives with another man while her husband is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from that law, and if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress. You realize this, right? That the law of marriage is binding on someone only as long as that person is alive?
Dead people aren't party to marriage covenants. You get that, right? |
Yes dave, you do realize this is G-d's Way and not mine right? You can find all the answers to these in your Bible. I hope that you will read the Bible lesson that I put up, I hope everybody reads it and we can have a good discussion about it shalom shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/2/18 9:45 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Great -- so we agree that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives.
I am overjoyed to tell you that I have died to the law through the body of Christ so that I may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead.
I invite and implore you to repent of your dead works and to put away your striving for righteousness, and be saved and justified by the grace and redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
All who live according to the law will be judged by the law, and that judgment will be the furious wrath of God that will condemn you to eternal damnation as just and right punishment for your inability to keep His law with perfection. Only through Christ can hope be found -- one who came and kept the law with perfection, and in so doing did what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. He has fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law for all who believe in Him.
I implore you by the mercy of God to repent and receive Christ as your savior. Repent of your sin and your abominable efforts to be righteous in His sight. If you do not, only wrath and fury awaits you. I implore you to repent and believe on Christ and Christ alone as your righteousness. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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2/2/18 10:09 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Great -- so we agree that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives.
I am overjoyed to tell you that I have died to the law through the body of Christ so that I may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead.
I invite and implore you to repent of your dead works and to put away your striving for righteousness, and be saved and justified by the grace and redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
All who live according to the law will be judged by the law, and that judgment will be the furious wrath of God that will condemn you to eternal damnation as just and right punishment for your inability to keep His law with perfection. Only through Christ can hope be found -- one who came and kept the law with perfection, and in so doing did what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. He has fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law for all who believe in Him.
I implore you by the mercy of God to repent and receive Christ as your savior. Repent of your sin and your abominable efforts to be righteous in His sight. If you do not, only wrath and fury awaits you. I implore you to repent and believe on Christ and Christ alone as your righteousness. |
Lol, I knew you would try to take it that way.... I will have a better answer when I get off work
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/2/18 11:04 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Spare yourself the time. There is nothing you can say that would persuade me concerning the deception that has captured your heart. The Law you seek to keep will be the holy and righteous basis for your condemnation and mine. It is only through Christ and His work that either of us can be spared.
Why do you kick against the goads? Embrace Christ and know freedom and salvation. He died and rose so that you could be granted entrance to God's eternal kingdom through Him.
I hope my words are not coming across harsh; they are offered in love and concern rather than condemnation. I have no condemnation to give; the condemnation and judgment has already been declared. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it. It is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
The work of salvation is Christ's alone. It is not begun in the flesh, and it is not completed or made mature in the flesh. Through His Spirit, He sanctifies us and makes us more like Him, but only when striving ceases and we throw ourselves fully upon Him. Know Christ and be free! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/2/18 1:32 pm
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UncleJD |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Spare yourself the time. There is nothing you can say that would persuade me concerning the deception that has captured your heart. The Law you seek to keep will be the holy and righteous basis for your condemnation and mine. It is only through Christ and His work that either of us can be spared.
Why do you kick against the goads? Embrace Christ and know freedom and salvation. He died and rose so that you could be granted entrance to God's eternal kingdom through Him.
I hope my words are not coming across harsh; they are offered in love and concern rather than condemnation. I have no condemnation to give; the condemnation and judgment has already been declared. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it. It is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
The work of salvation is Christ's alone. It is not begun in the flesh, and it is not completed or made mature in the flesh. Through His Spirit, He sanctifies us and makes us more like Him, but only when striving ceases and we throw ourselves fully upon Him. Know Christ and be free! |
If nothing else, this thread has been great to remind me of just how much Christ did for us on the Cross. Thanks Dave, wow! |
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2/2/18 4:37 pm
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