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 Re: In Matthew ... |
bradfreeman |
| Mat wrote: | In Matthew Jesus not only responds to the issue of just cause for divorce, he embraces the creative order of marriage (and thus divinely prescribed sexuality) that pre-dates the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses, which is God-given, reveals man's sinful nature, his inability to be justified by the Law and the need for and identity of the Messiah who could save man. As scripture tells us, if the first covenant had been perfect there would have been no need for a second covenant.
Such truths (one man, one women in marriage; don't shed innocent blood; no idols; blood sacrifice to cover sin, etc.) were revealed long before Moses and continue in the second covenant through Christ. Individual sexual practices and spirituality are linked through out the New Testament. There are few activities (idol worship; taking the name of God in vain; murder, etc) that have as much affect of our "whole man" relationship with God than what sexual practices we engage in.
To dis-associate how we conduct our lives concerning sex to violate one or perhaps both of the two great commandments Jesus taught.
Mat |
What do you mean by the phrase "affect of our "whole man" relatioship with God" and how does it jive with the idea that sex is a body-sin?
1 Cor. 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
Rom. 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
7/15/15 1:52 pm
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| As in ... |
Mat |
As in:
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10 NIV)
This is the four-part answer given by the lawyer who was questioning Jesus about eternal life. In other passages Jesus gives the three-part reference, however, it is clear that Jesus, time and again, said the most important commandment is to love the Lord with our entire being, the whole man.
Sex does not stop at the skin level, as it engages both mind and spirit as well as body. Paul warned that having sex with a harlot created a "one-flesh" relationship that "infused" (if you will) the sins of the harlot into the one having sex with her/him.
To engage in sinful sex is to say to God you do not love him.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
7/15/15 5:18 pm
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| Re: As in ... |
bradfreeman |
| Mat wrote: | As in:
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10 NIV)
This is the four-part answer given by the lawyer who was questioning Jesus about eternal life. In other passages Jesus gives the three-part reference, however, it is clear that Jesus, time and again, said the most important commandment is to love the Lord with our entire being, the whole man. |
Mat. 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Spiritually, the Law was written to Jesus. He was sent to fulfill the Law and the Prophets and did that (Luke 24:44).
“Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’” Heb. 10:7
| Quote: | | Sex does not stop at the skin level, as it engages both mind and spirit as well as body. |
Do you have any scripture to support this view? I really don't have too much trouble seeing the emotional associations created by physical intimacy - although I don't see any Bible that talks about a soul-tie. Spiritual union is achieved with Christ through the new birth. Interestingly, this is compared to the physical union created through sex.
1 Cor. 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
| Quote: | | Paul warned that having sex with a harlot created a "one-flesh" relationship that "infused" (if you will) the sins of the harlot into the one having sex with her/him. |
Explain what you mean that the sins of the harlot are "infused" into the whoremonger.
| Quote: | To engage in sinful sex is to say to God you do not love him.
Mat |
Are you extrapolating that sex is a failure to keep the law's command to love the Lord with all your strength? Is this correct?
Jesus kept this command perfectly and set his perfect righteousness to our account. We are no longer under any old covenant commands of any kind. We are under new covenant commands to believe and love one another as He loved us. 1 John 3:23
Paul doesn't make the argument that we are failing to love God when we have sex with a prostitute. He reminds the people having sex with prostitutes that they are the members of Christ, the temple of the Spirit, that the Spirit is in them, that they are Christ's (bought and paid for). He does not imply that this body sin breaks the spiritual union they have with Christ. He uses that spiritual union to inspire them to change, to glorify God in their bodies. He is making the argument that our failure to behave prevents people from seeing our good deeds and glorifying God.
1 Cor. 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Notice the distinction between body and spirit. Our union with Christ is in spirit. Our union in spirit and the Spirit's presence in us is unaffected by our union in body with a prostitute. Our union with a prostitute is a sin against our body, does not glorify God and is in opposition to our new nature.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
7/15/15 5:48 pm
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| Re: As in ... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Notice the distinction between body and spirit. Our union with Christ is in spirit. Our union in spirit and the Spirit's presence in us is unaffected by our union in body with a prostitute. Our union with a prostitute is a sin against our body, does not glorify God and is in opposition to our new nature. |
But it certainly would not take a feller to hell, right? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/15/15 7:17 pm
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| Re: As in ... |
bradfreeman |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Notice the distinction between body and spirit. Our union with Christ is in spirit. Our union in spirit and the Spirit's presence in us is unaffected by our union in body with a prostitute. Our union with a prostitute is a sin against our body, does not glorify God and is in opposition to our new nature. |
But it certainly would not take a feller to hell, right? |
Do you understand that, if the Spirit dwells in you, the kingdom of God is within you?
“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”
Romans 14:17 NASB
Do you understand that, if the Spirit dwells in you, you are not in the flesh?
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
Romans 8:9 NASB
Do you understand that, if you are in union with Christ, you are righteous and holy and seated in Heaven in spirit - not in body?
“If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.”
Romans 8:10 NASB
Hell? No.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
7/15/15 7:55 pm
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| Brad, I refer you to ... |
Mat |
Brad,
I refer you to what I posted earlier concerning Jesus affirming the creative order of marriage - one man, one woman, one marriage. By doing this Jesus reveals a "dis-order" of sexuality practiced outside the "in the beginning" plan of God.
Have you ever thought that God reveal divine truth prior to the Law of Moses?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
7/15/15 8:15 pm
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| Re: Lets look at it this way... |
Clint Wills |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Clint Wills wrote: | I read this recently, so I can't take credit for it - though I forget who wrote it.
If we believe in the Trinity, and therefore Jesus and God are one. And we also believe that all scripture is God breathed. Then isn't it safe to say that Jesus DID address homosexuality throughout the Bible? the gospels are NOT the entirety of the Bible, and anyone who uses Jesus' life as the ONLY authoritative guidance for our lives is being ridiculous. The things that Paul, Peter, and John wrote are all just as much the Word of God as the gospels. |
I have also heard it said that if Jesus is God, then believing in God is sufficient for salvation. So, if you use it for one, you have to use it for all. |
Believing that Jesus existed is not sufficient for Salvation. Believing that Jesus is the Son of God is a different story. I don't think too many people would say that Jesus was a fictional character. Or that He could be many things. Believing that there is a god and believing in God are two very different things. I also honestly believe that anyone who TRULY believes that Jesus is the Son of God will not be able to help but have a relationship with Him. The more I get to know Him, the more I want to know Him. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
7/15/15 10:37 pm
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| Jesus didn't mention??? |
Ed Brewer |
He didn't mention bestiality or blue jeans either.... get a clue
_________________
....from Barney Creek to Bountyland through every open door |
Friendly Face
Posts: 312
7/15/15 11:29 pm
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| Re: As in ... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Notice the distinction between body and spirit. Our union with Christ is in spirit. Our union in spirit and the Spirit's presence in us is unaffected by our union in body with a prostitute. Our union with a prostitute is a sin against our body, does not glorify God and is in opposition to our new nature. |
But it certainly would not take a feller to hell, right? |
Do you understand that, if the Spirit dwells in you, the kingdom of God is within you?
“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”
Romans 14:17 NASB
Do you understand that, if the Spirit dwells in you, you are not in the flesh?
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
Romans 8:9 NASB
Do you understand that, if you are in union with Christ, you are righteous and holy and seated in Heaven in spirit - not in body?
“If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.”
Romans 8:10 NASB
Hell? No. |
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/15/15 11:51 pm
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bigchurchmouse |
| Matthew 7:13, 14 may need to be rewritten if we are to believe certain Acts posters. They believe that broad is the way to life and most everybody will find it. I would not count on getting to Heaven that way. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2857
7/16/15 6:24 am
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| Silence does not mean sanctioning |
patrickballington |
There were several OT commands that were being misunderstood, misinterpreted, or misappropriated during Jesus' time on earth that he specifically addressed.
Jesus reached back to OT and gave deeper and clearer meaning to "don not murder" by including hatred and derogatory speech and "do not commit adultery" to include lust. He gave deeper and clearer meaning to justice ("eye for an eye") and included grace ("let him who is with sin cast the first stone") and voluntary non-violent response ("turn the other cheek"). He also confronted mistreatment of children and women by including them in his ministry and treating them dignity and respect. He even dealt with the Temple and sacrificial system saying it would all go away.
Jesus addressed marriage specifically (as others have noted) and dealt with the OT allowance for divorce (see footnote on this at the bottom) and clearly defined God's original intention for marriage stating that Moses permitted divorce because the Israelites were "hard hearted" and determined to do it regardless of God's intention. Jesus clearly said that "from the beginning" marriage was not supposed to be this way. He basically differentiated between what Mosesis (the Supreme Judge of Israel) declared as being legal and God (the ultimate authority and judge of the universe) declared as moral, spiritual, and originally intended.
Jesus did not shy away from correcting society's skewed or incomplete understanding of OT law or controversial social issues. When asked why Jesus didn't specifically address homosexuality, I suggest that he didn't do so because he didn't feel he needed to. The OT was clear enough and there was nothing new to add or amend.
He could have easily addressed the issue with a "you heard it said that a man should not lie with another man, but I tell you..." as he did on numerous occasions with several hot social issues of his day. Therefore, his refusal to speak to an issues some what to change from OT teaching in fact upholds the OT teaching.
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Footnote: as for the church welcoming same-sex couples into our churches- i know this could spark a fire storm but it is worth noting that the Church in general has welcomed couples who have divorced and remarried for reasons other than adultery and allowed them toast tend services, participate in serving, become ministry volunteers and low level leaders and in some cases assume high levels of leadership. Divorced people have found grace and acceptance WITHOUT the church having to chang our views and Jesus' teaching on marriage and divorce. Therefore, we should prayerfully and cautiously decide how to offer the same measure of grace and acceptance to same se couples who want to attend our churches and get involved WITHOUT changing our understanding and the Bible's teaching on homosexuality and marriage. I'm sure every divorced person feel uncomfortable when we preach and teach what the Bible and Jesus said regarding divorce. Same sex couples and homosexuals will feel the same when we preach and teach from Scripture on those subjects. But we have demonstrated that we can show grace and inclusion for one group who remains in adultery (married to a second or third spouse after divorcing their first), perhaps we now need to figure out how to do the same with the other group while continuing to remain true to Jesus' teaching on marriage and sexuality. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 116
7/16/15 6:29 am
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| Re: Brad, I refer you to ... |
bradfreeman |
| Mat wrote: | Brad,
I refer you to what I posted earlier concerning Jesus affirming the creative order of marriage - one man, one woman, one marriage. By doing this Jesus reveals a "dis-order" of sexuality practiced outside the "in the beginning" plan of God.
Have you ever thought that God reveal divine truth prior to the Law of Moses?
Mat |
Thanks Mat.
Yes, in response to your question.
But divine truth is a person - Jesus. He is the truth and is revealed in shadowy pictures throughout the Bible, even before the law. Wherever you find divine truth, you find the Truth.
Here's the one on marriage:
Gen. 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Even in Christ, many people comprise one bride. In the picture they paint of Christ, many wives is good, more than one husband is bad.
So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 1 Cor. 15:45-47
Since God only sees 2 men - Adam (the first man) and Jesus (the second man), we only have 2 choices as to who we are joined to (married to).
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
We are either "in Adam" and bringing for fruit unto death (Rom. 7:5) or "in Christ" and bringing forth fruit unto God (Rom. 7:4). Paul broke the 2 men down thoroughly in Romans 5:12-21 and then wrote about the death of our old man in Romans 6:1-11. Then in Romans 7, he explains the break we make from our first husband who died on the cross - whom Christ put to death on the cross. Our first husband was crucified (Jesus took on flesh, became sin and put them to death). Our new man was raised (notice Rom. 7:4 that we are joined "to Him who was raised").
The problem comes when we refuse to break our relationship to our first husband (Adam or the Law or the flesh or the sinful nature) by reckoning our old man dead.
Rom. 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
It is what we believe that determines who we are married to. As long as we refuse to reckon our first husband dead, we are severed from Christ.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Dead to the Law = joined to the Lord and bearing fruit for God.
Alive to the Law = severed from the Lord and fallen from grace.
It's spiritual fornication and adultery.
All of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms were spiritually written to to Jesus (to fulfill) and about Jesus (to bring to reality the shadowy pictures). Here are several scripture that confirm that any time you find Truth in the scriptures, you are finding writings about Jesus.
Here are several scriptures that support your view that divine truth is found throughout the scripture:
“Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’” Heb. 10:7
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. John 5:39
"Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:44
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Mat. 5:17
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Col. 2:16,17
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Heb. 10:1
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” Gal. 3:8
The Jews were unable to make the transition out of the flesh and into the spirit. They could only view the Law naturally - circumcision was in the flesh, the Lamb was a animal and the temple was a building made with hands. When the true Lamb of God showed up to circumcise hearts and move into them, they couldn't repent (metanoia - or change the way they think). They could not leave their first husband. They were still focused on the flesh, it's good (confidence in the flesh) and it's evil (condemnation). Their fleshly minds brought death on them, not life and peace.
So the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms were written for Jesus to fulfill and bring to reality the shadowy pictures in them.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
7/16/15 6:45 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | But we have demonstrated that we can show grace and inclusion for one group who remains in adultery (married to a second or third spouse after divorcing their first)... |
Do you honestly think that there can be no repentance and forgiveness for a person who has remarried unless they divorce their second spouse?
I really question the concept that a person who has remarried is "remaining in adultery." |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
7/16/15 7:31 am
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| Living a Christian Life |
Mat |
Brad,
Here's the rub, I have no doubt that Jesus is the all in all of the Word - the Word made flesh - the only name given where we might be saved - God incarnate. I don't believe I differ with you on who Jesus is.
Clearly we differ on what it means to be a Christian and how we should live. I believe that my relationship with Christ calls me to a consecrated life of obedience to His commands (his Word) as a child is to obey his father. I must reflect Christ in my life, not that my actions save me, rather my lifestyle is be a "worship" or sacrifice to God.
I still get the feeling from your writing its "one and done", in that once Christ is in you anything you do that might be considered good works becomes an affront to grace. To me your saying it is a "slap in the face of Jesus" to pray, go to church, give, witness, abstain from evil, do good to others, flee fornication, not take the name of the Lord in vain, and so many other commandments. I feel you're saying Jesus gets more glory out of our sinning then out of our sacrifice.
Now I would say, you go to your church and I'll go to mine, that is, you have that liberty. I do get the feeling that you have judge me for my convictions and believe me to be lost without Christ. I would say your judgement of me is an affront to Grace the way you believe.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
7/16/15 7:38 am
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| Re: Living a Christian Life |
bradfreeman |
| Mat wrote: | Brad,
Clearly we differ on what it means to be a Christian and how we should live. |
I doubt we differ much on this. Where we probably diverge is on HOW to bring about this Christian life.
| Quote: | | I believe that my relationship with Christ calls me to a consecrated life of obedience to His commands (his Word) as a child is to obey his father. I must reflect Christ in my life, not that my actions save me, rather my lifestyle is be a "worship" or sacrifice to God. |
I wouldn't disagree with anything you've written here. When we offer our bodies to God, it is an act of worship (Rom. 12:1). His Spirit in us empowers us to manifest the sanctification we possess in spirit.
| Quote: | | I still get the feeling from your writing its "one and done", in that once Christ is in you anything you do that might be considered good works becomes an affront to grace. |
This is a totally false conclusion to draw from what I teach or believe. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Grace produces the fruit of good works in us and teaches us how to live out righteous lives.
| Quote: | | To me your saying it is a "slap in the face of Jesus" to pray, go to church, give, witness, abstain from evil, do good to others, flee fornication, not take the name of the Lord in vain, and so many other commandments. I feel you're saying Jesus gets more glory out of our sinning then out of our sacrifice. |
No. No. ...no.
Paul says the problem is not in doing good (he repeatedly exhorts the churches to do good). Paul says the problem is placing any confidence or reliance on your good behavior as the basis for your righteousness before God. Righteousness is a gift.
We don't work FOR righteousness, out of fear, duty, obligation or shame. We aren't trying to work IN our salvation or work FOR our salvation.
We work FROM righteousness, out of love, gratitude and worship. We are working OUT our salvation. We work out what God has worked IN us.
Our work is fruit. It occurs easily and effortlessly (empowered by God's favor - grace) as we renew our thinking to the truth about Christ's person and work.
| Quote: | Now I would say, you go to your church and I'll go to mine, that is, you have that liberty. I do get the feeling that you have judge me for my convictions and believe me to be lost without Christ. I would say your judgement of me is an affront to Grace the way you believe.
Mat |
I'm sharing my views on grace, redemption and the new birth. It's reliance on work as a basis for righteousness that brings condemnation and a curse.
I don't judge you. I don't know you. If your confidence is still in your flesh, I would encourage you to change the way you think (repent) and move your faith, confidence and reliance off of the unfinished work of you and onto the finished work of Christ.
I think you've misunderstood my views. I'm not opposed to right-living. I want His kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as in Heaven. I'm opposed to right-living for the wrong reasons. Anything not born out of love is born from the wrong motive (1 Cor. 13:1-3) and is worthless to the doer.
There is no fear in God.
There is no fear in love.
What He produces in us flows from love, not fear...that's who He is.
I'm for the life of God flowing out of our innermost beings, the fruit of His Spirit being manifested in us and our treasure unearthed. I'm sure you are too.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
7/16/15 8:09 am
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| Re: Jesus did not speak about homosexuality. Why not? |
dolfan |
| doyle wrote: | The latest argument by some in the so-called gay community, say that since Jesus did not speak about homosexuality, it means he was not opposed to it. The issue has been reignited by some of Jimmy Carter's remarks that Jesus would have approved of gay marriage.
There was some discussion of this topic on the board some months ago but with some of the recent news events concerning gay marriage, why do you feel Jesus did not address homosexuality in his teachings? Possibly your answer and or reasoning, will help others who are confronted with this theory.
D |
Simply put, their problem is they read the bible like they do Green Eggs and Ham. God created marriage, and He said "do not commit adultery". He didn't have to say, "Do not commit it on a rock, do not commit it without socks, do not commit it on a pedestal, do not commit it as a homosexual."
The argument comes from this void: "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God."
_________________
"Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven." -- David Lipscomb |
Friendly Face
Posts: 356
7/16/15 4:27 pm
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patrickballington |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | But we have demonstrated that we can show grace and inclusion for one group who remains in adultery (married to a second or third spouse after divorcing their first)... |
Do you honestly think that there can be no repentance and forgiveness for a person who has remarried unless they divorce their second spouse?
I really question the concept that a person who has remarried is "remaining in adultery." |
I do believe there can be repentance and forgiveness for divorced people. But Jesus was very clear in stating that one who divorced and married someone else for reasons other than infidelity was committing adultery. He did not go on to explain how to untangle the situation or did he give instructions to the person to divorce their 2nd spouse and return to their 1st. We are left wondering what should be done to make things right. He left us with tension on how to deal with those who were divorced and remarried and considered by God as adulterers. We never resolve the tension but love with it by giving grace for them to move on without redefining what Jesus said or meant.
I merely point out that it is complicated and complex and according to Jesus' assessment remains an adulterous relationship. With no further instructions on how to correct it or how the church should respond we have, for the most part, offered grace and a way for the remarried couple to remain engaged in fellowship without changing what Jesus said a out their situation and divorce in general.
The challenge for us now is to find a way to do likewise with homosexuals and same sex marriages that occur outside of the church-- epecially as society moves forward in redefining family and more and more children get involved. Are we going to insist that same sex couples get divorced? What about the kids who are part of that arrangement?
I know the quick easy answer is "yes! They have to split up as a demonstration of their repentance!" But we do not require that of divorced couples who remarry. We allow them to 'remain in their adultery' without any outward demonstration.
Bottom line: It's all a tangled mess that is only going to get worse. Sin does that: it complicates and confuses everything. We just need to be generous and indiscriminate in our dispensation of grace with compromising truth and not continue to overlook what jesus taught about divorce while shoving what he said about marriage in the faces of same sex couples. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 116
7/16/15 10:56 pm
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bonnie knox |
I see a fundamental difference between a heterosexual remarriage and homosexual acts.
I know this resource has been recommended on Acts before, but it might be worth revisiting.
http://www.instonebrewer.com/divorceremarriage/ |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
7/17/15 7:34 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| patrickballington wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | But we have demonstrated that we can show grace and inclusion for one group who remains in adultery (married to a second or third spouse after divorcing their first)... |
Do you honestly think that there can be no repentance and forgiveness for a person who has remarried unless they divorce their second spouse?
I really question the concept that a person who has remarried is "remaining in adultery." |
I do believe there can be repentance and forgiveness for divorced people. But Jesus was very clear in stating that one who divorced and married someone else for reasons other than infidelity was committing adultery. |
Immediately before He said that, He also said to pluck out our eye and cut off our hand if it offends/causes us to sin. (See Matt. 5:29-30). Jesus often used hyperbole to make a point. And yet we have no problem saying He didn't mean us to literally maim ourselves to avoid sin. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
7/17/15 8:53 am
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