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 Formerly Large churches |
Cojak |
The term was used on an active post here on Acts. My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday. We visit way too many COG churches (and others of course, but our heart is with the COG) that seat 300 and now the congregation is as low as 15. The 15 is the lowest # we have seen in a large facility. That one is a country church, modern facility, but jobs have left the area.
Many that seat 200+ have 50 in worship service. Is there an answer other than it is what it is?
I have a friend in real estate. He describes the business property that we all see that has changed hands every year for the past 5 years with businesses going in and out of business. He says it is 'Snake bit' and if a Chinese food place can't make it mark it off.
Do we have churches in good cities that are snake bit? 
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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11/18/17 2:07 pm
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| Sometimes the neighborhood has changed |
roughridercog |
Some residential areas have become commercial. Others have had their congregation age and die out and the building reflects it. I have noticed that many smaller churches prefer a rented facility rather than a large building that would take all of their finances to just maintain.
Many pastors who draw no salary are at a church that every dime is used just to keep the building open.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
11/18/17 6:45 pm
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| Re: Sometimes the neighborhood has changed |
Cojak |
| roughridercog wrote: | ...
Many pastors who draw no salary are at a church that every dime is used just to keep the building open. |
Yes I know that is a fact, many times a pastor is paying to pastor, especially where the congregation has 'aged out'.
In that case i have said many times, even the ones aging out need someone to bury them.
Hope you are enjoying retirement my friend! 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
11/18/17 9:58 pm
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UncleJD |
My opinion, and I know its just opinion but I base it on personal observation.
The rise of the local mega-church. The big-show, black-ceiling, laser-light, fog machine, seeker-friendly, big-Easter giveaway church movement has siphoned off the majority of the 200 - 400 sized churches. That combined with the general shrinking of the church in the last 15 years due to the fact that the modern church has convinced most people that they "are just like everyone else" (you know, exactly what they thought would win everyone over), has added to the malaise and apathy of church in general.
We have a "formerly large" AG church here in town, it used to be the flagship, but it stuck with its old format, people left to go across town to the amusement-park, and now it runs about 40, mostly over 60. That church in turn, is trying to raise $36 Million to build a multi-purpose building that would have funded 100 churches in the area that would have collectively seated over 3 times the number of the mega-dome. I really don't know where we are today, something is wrong and its not God. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/20/17 10:14 am
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Chicago27 |
| I would be very careful about calling what is God and what is not God. Calling those things that are of God “not of God†is using His name in vain. Just because it’s not what you grew up with and doesn’t fit into the category of what you think is right, doesn’t mean it’s not a valid move of God. If souls are being saved, who gives a flip if it is done in a small church or a large church? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 253
11/20/17 10:29 am
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| Something I've noticed... |
Aaron Scott |
Back in the 80s (or so), the largest churches in Florida were Pine Hills (Orlando) and, Lakeland (W.W. Thomas' church), and University (Tampa). There were a few other large churches in the mix, too, I'm sure, but these come to mind.
While University has morphed into citilife (spelling?) and continues to excel, Pine Hills and others are now shadows of themselves.
I believe that some churches, through wise and strong leadership, can continually reinvent themselves and bring in a new generation, etc. But others, even though operated by the godliest of men, have to deal with things such as demographic changes, an aging congregation, the rise of other strong churches who "compete" for the same people, perhaps having a traditional style vs. the more current style that attracts, etc.
Poor business or financial decisions can take a church down. A pastor pulling out of the Church of God and taking many members with them. Or, God forbid, a moral failing that sends people scurrying away or at least to other churches.
All in all, I've come to think that churches have a "lifespan." A North Cleveland, who can attract MVP pastors, has solid financials, and also serves nearby Lee University, has a longer lifespan than most Churches of God. I would imagine that if we didn't count the outliers like North Cleveland or new plants, etc., we would likely find that most or our churches last 40-60 years before either closing or combining with another church.
I would guess that most churches above 70 years old are struggling and, even though they are still "alive," they are clearly on the way out. Some are one or two pastors away from severe decline. The next pastor will almost certainly not be like the old pastor...and that will drive people off. And even if they are like the old pastor, there will be something that doesn't sit well. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/20/17 10:34 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Chicago27 wrote: | | I would be very careful about calling what is God and what is not God. Calling those things that are of God “not of God†is using His name in vain. Just because it’s not what you grew up with and doesn’t fit into the category of what you think is right, doesn’t mean it’s not a valid move of God. If souls are being saved, who gives a flip if it is done in a small church or a large church? |
In many evangelical megachurches, souls are not being saved. Lost people are experiencing false conversion, to paraphrase Niebuhr, as a God without wrath brings men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross. They are being emotionally cajoled to "make a decision for Jesus" so that He can fix the brokenness in their lives, and told that if they did, in that highly charged emotional moment, they will experience eternity with Him. There is no preaching of Christ and Him crucified; nor is there preaching of the necessity of trusting by faith in His substitutionary work. There is no exhortation to examine one's self to see if saving faith is genuinely there.
The Bible commands judgment and discernment concerning such things. The teaching and practices of the standard evangelical megachurch are not secrets. And I think JD's spot on that the megachurch consumer model has had a very detrimental effect on the genuine community and gospel work that's possible in a church of 150-400ish. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 10:36 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| There was very encouraging news out of Texas recently, as Matt Chandler's Village Church announced that they would be spending the next few years transforming all of their campuses into individual, independent churches. They acknowledged that the multi-campus megachurch model was a decent way for them to handle their explosive growth, but that it was not suitable for long-term Christ-centered community. So they're spinning all those churches, and all those people, and all that money into independent congregations. I thought that news was extremely encouraging and I'm hopeful that other multi-campus churches will follow suit. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 10:43 am
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roughridercog |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | There was very encouraging news out of Texas recently, as Matt Chandler's Village Church announced that they would be spending the next few years transforming all of their campuses into individual, independent churches. They acknowledged that the multi-campus megachurch model was a decent way for them to handle their explosive growth, but that it was not suitable for long-term Christ-centered community. So they're spinning all those churches, and all those people, and all that money into independent congregations. I thought that news was extremely encouraging and I'm hopeful that other multi-campus churches will follow suit. |
Is this tantamount to essentially creating a new denomination/organization with the satellite churches or will each church be a self governing body?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
11/20/17 10:55 am
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Chicago27 |
| i just wonder how anyone would know that souls are not being saved in many mega churches. That’s an incredible assumption. One could say that in a church of 40, that has remained 40 for a hundred years, that’s no souls are ever saved. That would be an assumption as well but far better odds. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 253
11/20/17 10:57 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| roughridercog wrote: | | Is this tantamount to essentially creating a new denomination/organization with the satellite churches or will each church be a self governing body? |
Self-governing. I can't imagine they won't retain some form of informal partnership with each other, but they were specific about each church being independent and elf-governing. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 11:15 am
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UncleJD |
| Chicago27 wrote: | | If souls are being saved, who gives a flip if it is done in a small church or a large church? |
We're talking about the church shrinking, are you saying it is not so? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/20/17 11:21 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Chicago27 wrote: | | i just wonder how anyone would know that souls are not being saved in many mega churches. That’s an incredible assumption. One could say that in a church of 40, that has remained 40 for a hundred years, that’s no souls are ever saved. That would be an assumption as well but far better odds. |
Because they can listen to the sermons that are being preached and can with their own ears that a false, man-centered gospel is being preached. False gospels do not produce genuine gospel fruit. I'm sure there are people in these churches that are finding genuine faith by God's graciousness, and I know there are a few megachurches that are faithfully preaching the gospel. But in general, a false gospel does not produce true gospel fruit.
We're given a recipe in Scripture for determining whether fruit is genuine, and it's judging the doctrine that is being preached in the light of Scripture. If you preach a Christ that will heal my body, make me rich, and make everything in my life awesome, you're going to have a lot of people who will respond to an invitation to receive him, but they would be receiving a false Christ. We are watching untold multitudes unknowingly head to Hell, believing they are actually saved, because we will not judge man-centered teaching for what it is, as we are commanded in Scripture to do.
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 11/20/17 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 11:26 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | | Is this tantamount to essentially creating a new denomination/organization with the satellite churches or will each church be a self governing body? |
Self-governing. I can't imagine they won't retain some form of informal partnership with each other, but they were specific about each church being independent and elf-governing. |
And here I was thinking that such churches were only to be found at the North Pole! Ho ho ho! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
11/20/17 11:30 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | And here I was thinking that such churches were only to be found at the North Pole! Ho ho ho! |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 11:30 am
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bradfreeman |
| Chicago27 wrote: | | i just wonder how anyone would know that souls are not being saved in many mega churches. That’s an incredible assumption. One could say that in a church of 40, that has remained 40 for a hundred years, that’s no souls are ever saved. That would be an assumption as well but far better odds. |
They don't know. Many just like to lump everyone who's not like them into a pile and throw rocks at them. They don't know what is preached. They don't know the sense of community. They don't know if people are being reached or saved. They just know they are envious of the crowds and sad because their churches are emptying because of a lot of issues - mostly irrelevancy, a mixed message of condemnation and preaching anything but Jesus.
We have a mega church in our area that is emptying the churches still stuck in the 70's. I don't attend there, but the message is Christ-centered, small groups create a strong sense of community, many are being saved and baptized and droves who wouldn't set foot in the necktie church are experiencing Jesus, not religion. The size means nothing when defining what a church is all about. There are tons of small churches literally dying of religion.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/20/17 11:30 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | They don't know what is preached. |
They certainly do. They can listen to these sermons, and I've listened to dozens and dozens and dozens of them from across the evangelical megachurch spectrum as I've come to these conclusions.
I'm not saying every megachurch is like that, but it's just undeniable that more are than aren't. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/20/17 11:32 am
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Cojak |
With this post I am looking back at my past. There was a time in the 50's & 60's in NC, many times when a church reached the 200-400 in attendance range, instead of building a larger edifice, that church would mother another COG. Looking back, 200 was the most a single pastor could 'pastor' comfortably, it seemed to work then. In our area (GAston County) we had many with good pastors.
Things were different then. With the cotton mill villages most folk walked to church. 90% of the members were within 5 miles of the church.
Right now my home church that has run consistently 100-175 in worship has dropped below 100. The members of our church drive as much as 35 miles one way to attend, either are kin to the pastor or followed him. Now probably 10% of our congregation if within 10 miles of the church. When this pastor leaves our attendance will most likely be cut in half.
There was a time when members felt an obligation to a 'local church' if they did not particularly like the pastor they knew they 'would outlast him' many had this attitude without any animosity to the leader at all, they could live with the 'misfitting' for a couple years. Now with transportation available many will follow the pastor or will drive to Central. I don't blame them for that Loran is a very good preacher and pastor. I know many people are at Central who used to attend the dying churches.
It is yet to be known if Central will retain it's solid base when Loran leaves and he will at some point leave or pass away, we all do that, pass away!
The gist of my thoughts is Can these 'formerly large churches' be reinvented where the demographics show the potential is good.
I know that changing the name remodeling for a coffee bar has not worked where jobs have disappeared.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
11/20/17 12:00 pm
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UncleJD |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: |
In many evangelical megachurches, souls are not being saved. Lost people are experiencing false conversion, to paraphrase Niebuhr, as a God without wrath brings men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross. . |
Well said. Close to my favorite William Boothe quote
| Quote: | | I consider that the chief dangers which confront the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell" |
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Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/20/17 12:07 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| UncleJD wrote: | | We have a "formerly large" AG church here in town, it used to be the flagship, but it stuck with its old format, people left to go across town to the amusement-park. |
Gotta admit an all, I love ya descriptive here JD. Cause fer a heap of em that's what they are, amusement parks--from adults down to the young'uns, in the words of author Neil Postman, they are "amusing themselves to death." |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/20/17 1:41 pm
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