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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 **5/17/14 8:47 pm**

Tom, if you could, what does "without hierarchy" mean there? Is it a denial of the headship of the husband over the wife? Is it a denial of the headship of the elders over the church?

Just trying to get an idea of what is intended by the contrasting use of complementary AND hierarchy. You'll no doubt understand, and hopefully forgive, my skepticism that such sounds like a witty way of more or less espousing egalitarianism. if that is the case I would not be interested in the book. BUT, if it is something different from that then my curiosity is peaked. Wink

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Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."

Friendly Face Posts: 300 **5/17/14 10:17 pm**

I will vote YES

Mike Chapman

Re: Are we so prepared to do something against the Word...

Friendly Face Posts: 219 **5/18/14 6:41 am**

[quote="roughridercog"]Using opinions, passions, human reasoning, and even the argument that other denominations are doing it. I'm not trying to argue, but this could begin us down a slippery slope and one is forced to wonder, "Where will it stop?"

Just thinking out loud.[/quote]

Slippery slope? Like ordaining homosexuals or some other nonsense, fear based excuse. I think the only thing men are really afraid of is not knowing how they could ever listen to a woman lead them. Most men who vote no hang their hat on two scriptures. Some dont even know two scriptures to support the antagonism.

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2960 **5/18/14 2:49 pm**

Friendly Face Posts: 219 **5/18/14 8:08 pm**

Friendly Face Posts: 219 **5/18/14 8:13 pm**

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2960 **5/19/14 11:35 am**

Friendly Face Posts: 356 **5/19/14 1:29 pm**

I don't think the question of ordaining women is easy. It also cannot, in good conscience in my mind, separate us. It takes a bit of a flexible view of the practical commands of the New Testament to reach a place where one can comfortably assert the ordaining women is acceptable.

But, some of the practical commands are given with flexibility. Paul said that a bishop or elder should be married to one woman. Paul wasn't married and said he would have it that no unmarried Christian man sought a wife, if he had it his way. Which was it? Did Paul teach that an unmarried man had to marry in order to qualify for elder or bishop or deacon? I don't see it if he did. Order of worship is practically wide open it is so flexible. There were common elements, but no particular prescribed order and almost no details in Scripture on many things. So, we see now wide varieties on so many things.

The wearing of a head covering for women was, for Paul in 1 Corinthians 11, not negotiable. He spent a lot of ink on the reasons for it and landed on, "hey, if you don't like it, tough. There is no other custom in Christian churches." We have flexed that right out of existence, practically.

Inside that chapter, though, that we have ignored clear instruction on, lies this morsel: "But every women who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head...". This was public, assembled believers in worship. Another function of our flexibility is that we flexed out of existence the plurality of speakers in a meeting in favor of one preacher and a large audience facing him. (We wonder why gifts of the Spirit are missing in our meetings. We limit the speakers to the one. Ah, but that is another matter for another time.) Reading this passage makes us ask "huh?" But, in the Greek church, women spoke with approval --- while not wearing head coverings....without approval. The issue was not whether she prayed or prophesied. That seems to be expected. The issue was how submissive to God she was in her conduct. Isn't that an issue now? Boy, howdy, for all of us.

I park here. The order of submission in 1 Cor. 11 woman/wife to man/husband to Christ to God the Father means something. It is not mere poetry. It is not limited to home. I don't think we have fully thought through the implications of ignoring the distinctions. One of these implications is very much in our faces: homosexuality. If we can simply assign what Paul offered as a universal direction regarding women and head coverings (the real thrust of his statements in 1 Cor. 11) to the dust bin of cultural relevancy, then homosexuals and gay marriage proponents who want access to the church as participants in the graces of God may be right. If we can just ignore the gender distinctions of Paul about public ministry, or if we do not have a clear enough understanding of them to proceed without simply disregarding them -- as most of what I have read in the past by egalitarians does -- we have forfeited the power of truth on those distinctions as they relate to marriage. It is hollow when we assert "thus saith the Lord" about marriage when we have ignored so many other thus saiths. We may be right, but we are not completely right, and that seems to me to fly in the face of Paul's instruction that the man of God is perfectly furnished in every good work by studying the Word.

I don't part with anyone who disagrees. I simply think that no one has really thought the entire matter through to be able to meet the challenges of the implications of our treatment of Scripture.
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"Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven." -- David Lipscomb

Friendly Face Posts: 356 **5/19/14 2:45 pm**

Oh, I would love it. Let's do. If I am not quick enough to respond on something, everyone be merciful. Smile

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"Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven." -- David Lipscomb

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **5/19/14 2:48 pm**

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **5/19/14 4:08 pm**

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 **5/19/14 4:56 pm**

I meant no offense, and if I gave any I apologize. I wouldn't want Tom to feel like he wasted his money on me if there were others more interested in the book. After all, it's not as if I can't buy it myself.

I was honestly curious if the title meant some sort of mitigated complementarian view, because THAT I was interested in. But if it's egalitarianism then I am already familiar with the position, and deny it. I supposed his money would be better spent on giving the book to more potentially eager readers.

However, I am willing to receive a copy of the book if Tom would like me to have it. After all, he has a wonderful book in his collection now, by my recommendation, as Bonnie caused me to recall. The least I could do is accept a reciprocal book of his choosing, should he so desire.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2960 **5/19/14 6:10 pm**

Acts-celerater Posts: 900 **5/20/14 11:43 am**

No.
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Acts-celerater Posts: 534 **5/21/14 1:05 am**

Yes. Way too long we have waited and we should have said yes years ago. Our sister church Assembly of God are a wonderful group and mightily called of God anointed to spread the gospel. We would not be getting it wrong or neither would we be in opposition to God's word if we could have some sharp minded people evaluate the topic with a blue ribbon panel.
Tom Sterbens I don't know you but I'm glad young men like you are helping to lead this church. We are in good hands with guys like you. I say this with the love of Christ. Bless you.
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Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **5/21/14 3:10 am**

Re: Are we so prepared to do something against the Word...

Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 **5/21/14 9:55 am**

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2960 **5/21/14 11:45 am**

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 **5/21/14 11:54 am**

Nick, krista

Friendly Face Posts: 219 **5/21/14 1:31 pm**

Is dealing with ignorant paranoia. The only thing worse than liberalism is fear that keeps you from advancing. His or her {I guess that makes Krista an it} fear makes it want to control. It can't. It (krista) is in the minority. It is more concerned with his roots than his future. Part of the crowd that can't bridge the two. So that's why I excused her from the table. Our leaders know what they are doing. Vote for them and let them lead us forward.