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 Re: State Council |
deskjet7 |
| Texicanii wrote: | | If you have live in Texas long and been a member or pastor in the Church of God you the council controls the AB.Has been that way for years. When the same men rotate on the council all the time you know who's in charge. |
If I recall, it is the ministers of the state that vote these men into the positions in which they serve. Our AB is not on a leash, nor is the state council. From my view, there has been a good working relationship. Much good has been accomplished in Texas. There is much more to do. I do believe that we need to see more new churches planted throughout Texas. I would think most other states would agree that they too need new churches planted in their respective states as well.
Last edited by deskjet7 on 7/6/13 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/6/13 12:53 am
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| Re: Phillip... |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I believe in the church universal. I also believe that while the Church of God is part of THE CHURCH...and I also believe that the Church of God is a SPECIAL PART of THE CHURCH.
I have long believed that the Church of God represents a key element in God's restoration of the early Church in modern times. We are not just another dime-a-dozen Pentecostal church (in a manner of speaking). We may ACT that way. We may BECOME that way. We may BELIEVE that way. But I cannot help but believe that God chose the early members of the Church of God (even before they were the Church of God) for a reason.
God could have poured out His Spirit on hundreds of other candidates. But just as Jesus, instead of being born in a palace, was laid in a manger, so, too, did God choose the poor, common folks of the Unicoi mountains to first pour out His Spirit in modern times.
So, again, we are PART of THE CHURCH. But we are, I believe, a SPECIAL part...if we can grasp and receive it. |
Everybody is special. Every Christian is special. Why would the COG be more special than any other church? Could it be that Tomlinson had a vision about the end-time church of God, and misinterpreted it to refer to an organization he helped set up (or modify and turn into a larger one)?
If you were raised AOG, would you think the AOG was a special Pentecostal denomination? Who has gotten more people saved, the AOG denomination or the COG denomination? I'm not putting down COG missions abroad, but the AOG sure has grown. It does seem like some of the COG growth has come from mergers.
Why is the COG more special than other Pentecostal groups? People in the COG spoke in tongues before the Azusa Street Revival, but what about those groups in the US who spoke in tongues before it broke out in the COG, the Fire Baptized Holiness, the Gift People up in Maine, or the church that turned into the Catholic Apostolic Church movement in England, or some of the Methodists before that? Why aren't they 'more special' than the COG? That's assuming speaking in tongues first would make you more special than exercising some other gift.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/6/13 3:40 am
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| Re: Link... |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
I said "Church of God" because Bro. Marshall, having received the Holy Ghost in that church (I believe that's what he said) was apparently drawn by the Lord to THAT church. THAT church is not some generic "member of the body of Christ," but a specific church: The Ennis Church of God. And if he was called to THAT church...he needs to be at THAT church. |
He wrote that he believed he'd been called to Ennis, and he believed God had led him to the decision he made. I haven't heard God tell me he is wrong, and I would be hesitant to speculate on what someone's call really is.
It sounds like he might be ministering to the same church, but one that's not affiliated with the denomination and in a different building.
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I can tell you that I have seldom seen people who leave on such terms (I am speaking specifically of anger and hurt) continue to prosper. It begins to taint their ministry. Moreover, it can find its way into the new church and wreak havoc. I don't want that for Bro. Marshall! I'm not saying that's the way it will be. But experience (not that least being AJT) tells me that it can follow this path. |
I can't say whether there is anything sinful left in terms of feelings and unresolved relationships. That's for everyone involved to deal with with one another and the Lord. But Paul and Barnabas split and Paul wrote that he outlabored the other apostles. Barnabas may have done well, too. We aren't given many details about him.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/6/13 3:51 am
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| Re: Just think |
4thgeneration |
| deskjet7 wrote: | | Maybe it is time for individual churches to stand on their own. No underwriting by the Church of God. If they make it, great. If not, well, hopefully that would not happen to to many. Let's fix this. |
Just as an FYI- the COG has put a moratorium on all underwriting on the state and international level. This happened a few years ago, during the financial crunch, when churches, state offices, and international offices were all struggling from the effects of the economic downturn. At the same time the state/international offices were dealing with the effects of the tot reduction.
So, as you suggested, this has been "fixed." |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1607
7/6/13 6:50 am
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| Fix it |
Change Agent |
| I agree with Deskjet. Let's fix the current problem by letting all churches stand on their own. When a church gets out of debt give them their deed back. Encourage them to stand on their own. Then when the financial crunch comes the COG can come with prayer and support during that time of crisis instead of a heavy hand to remove the pastor. If the church is operating as it should the pastor will not be the only one that carries the load. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
7/6/13 7:59 am
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| Re: Just think |
deskjet7 |
| 4thgeneration wrote: | | deskjet7 wrote: | | Maybe it is time for individual churches to stand on their own. No underwriting by the Church of God. If they make it, great. If not, well, hopefully that would not happen to to many. Let's fix this. |
Just as an FYI- the COG has put a moratorium on all underwriting on the state and international level. This happened a few years ago, during the financial crunch, when churches, state offices, and international offices were all struggling from the effects of the economic downturn. At the same time the state/international offices were dealing with the effects of the tot reduction.
So, as you suggested, this has been "fixed." |
This is not totally fixed yet since we have many underwritten loans still out there. Some into the millions. This is especially in a lot of our bigger states. if we had some of our biggest loans go into default, the church wouild be in a world of hurt. This congregation in Ennis has become selfish. They knew they could just walk away at no cost to them, but the Church of God still owes the debt because we underwrote the note. Basically they were renters.
The face of the church is changing. The way we do church, start curches, etc has greatly changed over the years. I believe we will change. Hopefully willingly with the hand of God leading us and not by force with us dragging our heals. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/6/13 8:55 am
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| Two minds |
Mat |
So which is it in the COG?
Underwrite loans for local church's new buildings , because that's the part of the mission of the state/general levels.
Or when it comes to buildings, the local church must fine there own way.
When you borrow money you give up control to the institution who's money it is and to those who you ask to cosign. If you don't pay the loan according to terms you give more power to others.
However, it local churches are on their own when it wants to build and barrow, then they should rise and fall according to the congregation. Of course, they should own their church.
Perhaps the COG should give well defined grants to well planned building projects in the spirit of fellowship and unity. The amounts may be less, but the so would the paperwork and the control. A gift frees both parties and each party becomes accountable individually before God.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
7/6/13 9:16 am
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| Re: Just think |
Travis Johnson |
| deskjet7 wrote: | | This congregation in Ennis has become selfish. They knew they could just walk away at no cost to them, but the Church of God still owes the debt because we underwrote the note. Basically they were renters. |
There needs to be an eye toward restoration. This whole thing is utterly grievous on so many levels and for so many people. But, we won't even have a shot at bringing repair to this moment or the next if we aren't fair and honest...open to the soft truth about ourselves at the very least. Whether we own our dysfunction or not, it's clearly visible. And, there are plenty of mistakes to go around.
Brother, this is not speech that moves toward repair. Surely, this can get fixed. Surely, repair can be made. But, it won't be when we simply posture up justifying already made decisions.
My hope is that there is still time to fall on one another's necks in sadness, repenting and healing one another. This is not the legacy of our church. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
7/6/13 9:38 am
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| Buck & Travis |
zjudah1 |
My hope is that there is still time to fall on one another's necks in sadness, repenting and healing one another. This is not the legacy of our church.
I couldn't have said it better!
Rod A. Cannon |
Friendly Face
Posts: 202
7/6/13 9:51 am
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| Re: Just think |
John Jett |
| deskjet7 wrote: | | This congregation in Ennis has become selfish. They knew they could just walk away at no cost to them, but the Church of God still owes the debt because we underwrote the note. Basically they were renters. |
Seriously? The congregation had its pastor ripped away by a committee. The pastor practically begged the AB to not remove him and asked what scenario would allow him to stay and was told basically 'NONE'. We had someone who was willing to pay the debt current but was told by the AB that even if that happened he could not promise that the pastor would not be removed! Even then, we came up with money to pay the past-due bills current rather than walking away (selfish?). It was the state, not the people that broke trust here. Today, this congregation has no building, nothing easy, a hard road ahead. Selfish? I think that word (along with a few others) can best be ascribed to those who made the decisions that lead to this.
| deskjet7 wrote: | | If the New Hope Church of God could in a short period of time, upon being notified that the pastor was going to be removed, then could rally together to pay current all the bills of the church, why did they not do this to remain in the location they were in in the first place? |
Because the pastor asked how could he fix the situation and was told he couldn't. Raise the money? "NO" Fire staff members? "NO" ... According to the AB, he was going to be given no remedy to fix this, PERIOD, he was being removed ("because the bank and council were demanding it"). Remember, it was only AFTER the fact, after he had to tell his wife and children, elders and staff, and AFTER he had refused new appointments to other cities which he had not been called to, that they changed their minds and were willing to let him stay on "suspended/etc...". This fact is irrefutable and was admitted by the AB on Sunday morning in front of the whole congregation (his exact words "Everything you pastor has told you is true" after Buck had given the timeline and what he offered to do to stay on). A congregation that was stunned and who, in no way, valued a building over a ministry.
The COG government's fantasy that it could just whisk away the pastor and the whole congregation would dutifully stay and wait for its next appointed pastor is from a bygone era. At least in Texas, the very men that created this situation are the same that ended the former practices of the COG in Texas of having district meetings/rallies/youth-events, etc.. that was the very reason you could do those things in the past. Out of suspicion of each-other, they no longer wanted to have their congregations fellowship together since they were afraid of "sheep stealing" as one of them used to put it.
That will always be one of the things I miss the most about the COG in Texas, when we felt like a large community because we all knew each other. But that COG has not existed since the mid 80s (long before Buck Marshall was involved in ministry). |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
7/6/13 11:45 am
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Carolyn Smith |
John - I am glad for the comments you made. Calling a church selfish who has just given $14,000 only to lose their church and pastor is not appropriate.
I fail to understand what is to be gained by continuing to rehash this situation in which hearts are broken, ministry is challenged at best, and hurt, confusion, and misgivings abound.
I agree with those who have called us to prayer in this situation. God is the only one that can bring beauty from ashes and restoration to His people.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
7/6/13 12:21 pm
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| They could have stayed |
deskjet7 |
After all said and done, the pastor and church could have stayed? Is that right? I want to make sure I am clear on this. The pastor could have stayed.
I still say the same thing, that if all these things were done to catch the church finances up, and the pastor and congregation could stay, they should have. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/6/13 1:14 pm
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SouthGeorgiaBoy |
| Quote: | | Seriously? The congregation had its pastor ripped away by a committee. The pastor practically begged the AB to not remove him and asked what scenario would allow him to stay and was told basically 'NONE'. We had someone who was willing to pay the debt current but was told by the AB that even if that happened he could not promise that the pastor would not be removed! Even then, we came up with money to pay the past-due bills current rather than walking away (selfish?). It was the state, not the people that broke trust here. Today, this congregation has no building, nothing easy, a hard road ahead. Selfish? I think that word (along with a few others) can best be ascribed to those who made the decisions that lead to this. |
John, evidently the congregation did not have their pastor ripped away because they are still with him. My question is if the money could be raised to pay the debt current at this time, why was it not done before it got to this point? From what I have read this is something that occurred at times before. How can you say that the state broke trust? From my understanding the state had worked with the church previously?
I have heard Matthew 18 referred to here as it relates to how the overseer should have handled this situation that has been going on for years. If it is good for the overseer isn't it good for others? Did you go to the overseer before you posted this original thread here? In my opinion this was all an attempt to discredit the leadership of the state on a public forum. If you want to be Biblical then it should have been handled with him. Did you?
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1037
7/6/13 1:59 pm
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| Response |
deskjet7 |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | John - I am glad for the comments you made. Calling a church selfish who has just given $14,000 only to lose their church and pastor is not appropriate.
I fail to understand what is to be gained by continuing to rehash this situation in which hearts are broken, ministry is challenged at best, and hurt, confusion, and misgivings abound.
I agree with those who have called us to prayer in this situation. God is the only one that can bring beauty from ashes and restoration to His people. |
Not wanting to sound mean and not saying it that way, but they did not give a gift, it was what they owed. It is or was there church and there responsibility. I hope that things will heal over and it will still be New Hope Church of God. I believe I have stated that in my other post.
Let's remember that it was John Jett, who is connected with New Hope, that originally posted and broke this story on Accelerate for discussion. Maybe if he does not want to discuss this any longer he could request it be deleted. Pastor Marshall also willingly posted his timeline of events. Leaving all this for discussion. Is it a bad situation? Yes! Can there be reconciliation? I believe so. Is this what New Hope is wanting, to reconcile the differences? Is this what Pastor Marshall wants to do as well? I hope so.
Oh and I believe that prayer is not an option. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/6/13 2:04 pm
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| Just a thought |
R. Keith Whitt |
It's easy to say coulda, shoulda, woulda, if you haven't been there.
Have the wrong attitude and spirit -- and you will be....
Just my experienced O,
Keith
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R. Keith Whitt |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 684
7/6/13 7:04 pm
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Gerald Abreu |
This is who we are. And it's strangely disheartening.
_________________
http://geraldabreu.info
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Abraham Lincoln
There are two ways to enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.
John Adams |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 900
7/6/13 9:07 pm
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| Re: Just think |
deskjet7 |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | deskjet7 wrote: | | This congregation in Ennis has become selfish. They knew they could just walk away at no cost to them, but the Church of God still owes the debt because we underwrote the note. Basically they were renters. |
There needs to be an eye toward restoration. This whole thing is utterly grievous on so many levels and for so many people. But, we won't even have a shot at bringing repair to this moment or the next if we aren't fair and honest...open to the soft truth about ourselves at the very least. Whether we own our dysfunction or not, it's clearly visible. And, there are plenty of mistakes to go around.
Brother, this is not speech that moves toward repair. Surely, this can get fixed. Surely, repair can be made. But, it won't be when we simply posture up justifying already made decisions.
My hope is that there is still time to fall on one another's necks in sadness, repenting and healing one another. This is not the legacy of our church. |
It is my understanding that they could stay. No one has refuted that at this point. I hope that they will work things out. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/6/13 9:23 pm
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Bro Bob |
This post I am making ought to be a new thread.
Tomorrow morning I will be starting a new conversation in our SS class. A new topic. I have been drawn towards and been putting off something tugging at my heart: Division in the body of Christ.
We will begin with some history acknowledging the fact that if you were in the body of Christ for the 1st 1000 years after he left, you were Catholic. Then it basically split between Roman Catholics and orthodoxy of the eastern part.
Then Martin Luther (who did not intend to break from, but restore through repentance his beloved church) came along and begged them to repent, to turn.
Hundreds of years earlier, the church was expanding and politically powerful. But now it was attacking itself. For hundreds of years now the word 'denominations' has well defined and established our alliances, exactly who is our brother and who is not. All while admitting there are some good folks in the other camp who will make it to heaven.
This is not the America I grew up in. We are tearing each other apart. This is not the Church of God that I grew up in either. We do not share our method, we tear down the other guys method. We do not come together in district fellowship or state fellowship, laymen like me no longer plan our vacation time so that we can be at camp meeting.
The state office in Texas knew for a long time there was financial dysfunction at the church in Ennis. But who went to that church, called a meeting with all members present, and gave them proper instruction as to how to do business in a way that would work and not embarrass them or kill their Christian witness in the community? Who gave proper instruction to the pastor about where his limits lay in financial authority? Who instructed the men of that church as to what their duty was, and stayed to answer every man's question?
We KNOW how to do this and do it right! Why aren't we? Do we really need a letter from a bank official to tell us we are failing in a fundamental way?
..................................
Folks, today's America is on the doorstep of persecuting the church in ways we pentecostals have forgotten from our early years, only this time it will be much worse. They have already begun with the Catholics as their prime political target. This time it won't be just us that comes under attack. It will be the Baptists, and the Presbyterians, and the Lutherans and the Catholics! The only ones who escape it will be the ones that give in to it, who open even their pulpits to wickedness, rather than stand with their Ephesians 6 armor ready to fight it.
This thing in Ennis tells us plainly, we are not ready to take on what is coming. Our enemy that hates us because they hate and have rejected God and his Son is going to find us gnashing on each other. We will be an easy prey for them. You had better believe they are united!
You had better hear me and hear me well. You know this is wrong. You know it doesn't have to be this way. You know it is foolishness to stay on this path.
WHEN WILL YOU TURN?
I say if you can't fix something as easy and simple and basic as Ennis Texas, you will never stand when it is the enemy of God himself who is coming for you.
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Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?
The day cometh.
And you are not ready for what it brings. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
7/6/13 9:32 pm
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| It was all laid out |
deskjet7 |
| Bro Bob wrote: |
The state office in Texas knew for a long time there was financial dysfunction at the church in Ennis. But who went to that church, called a meeting with all members present, and gave them proper instruction as to how to do business in a way that would work and not embarrass them or kill their Christian witness in the community? Who gave proper instruction to the pastor about where his limits lay in financial authority? Who instructed the men of that church as to what their duty was, and stayed to answer every man's question? |
It was all laid out the first go around months ago to the pastor. There were suggestions and direction for him to take. This is where it is now.
I do believe we are in a different America. Therefore the church must be strong as you mentioned in Ephesians 6. I believe that what we see happening among churches today are just the beginning. We must be string in the Lord and in the power of His might. We may all be without a church building some day. The day of buildings could soon pass. I heard someone say it kinda of like this...We might have to actually be the church instead of being in a church. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1815
7/6/13 10:01 pm
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Bro Bob |
| Quote: | | It was all laid out the first go around months ago to the pastor. There were suggestions and direction for him to take. |
With all due respect, if this was something the pastor alone could handle, you would never have heard about it to begin with. More than that, administration of church finances is the responsibility of the church in conference, unless they select a Church and Pastor's council and give that authority over to them.
The pastor would have been the least important person at the meeting that should have been held. He needed to be there, but as an observer.
This is their debt. It is their responsibility. He has his hands full being their shepherd.
Everything I am telling you is how it is still laid out in the MINUTES, and is how every Church of God used to be operated, before we started devouring ourselves. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
7/6/13 10:29 pm
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