 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 Where did the terms 5-fold and 4-fold ministry originate? |
Link |
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
bonnie knox |
My guess is that it was debated on a forum with some folks claiming the language was ambiguous as to whether pastors included a group apart from teachers.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/4/17 7:39 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
Okay, this is interesting. This is from Gill's Commentary, which I believe is John Gill, who wrote his An Exposition of the New Testament in 1746-1748.
The upshot is that this commentary is evidence of the controversy of whether it should be counted as 4 or 5 existing even in the mid 1700's.
I found the commentary on biblehub.com. I don't know what work Gill's footnote references.
....
and some pastors and teachers, or doctors; these may be thought to differ, but not so much on account of the place where they perform their work, the one in the church, the other in the school; nor on account of the different subject of their ministry, the one attending to practical, the other to doctrinal points; but whereas the pastors are the shepherds of the flock, the overseers of it, and the same with the bishops and elders, and the teachers may be the gifted brethren in the church, assistants to the pastors, bare ministers of the word; so the difference lies here, that the one has the oversight, and care, and charge of the church, and the other not; the one can administer all ordinances, the other not; the one is fixed and tied to some certain church, the other not: though I rather think they intend one and the same office, and that the word "teachers" is only explanative of the figurative word "pastors" or shepherds; and the rather because if the apostle had designed distinct officers, he would have used the same form of speaking as before; and have expressed himself thus, "and some pastors, and some teachers"; whereas he does not make such a distribution here as there; though the Syriac version reads this clause distributively as the others; and among the Jews there were the singular men or wise men, and the disciples of the wise men, who were their companions and assistants; and it is asked (y),
"who is a singular man? and who is a disciple? a singular man is everyone that is fit to be appointed a pastor or governor of a congregation; and a disciple is one, that when he is questioned about any point in his doctrine, gives an answer:''
wherefore if these two, pastors and teachers, are different, it might be thought there is some reference to this distinction, and that pastors answer to the wise men, and teachers to their disciples or assistants; and so Kimchi in Jeremiah 3:15 interprets the pastors there of , "the pastors of Israel", which shall be with the King Messiah, as is said in Micah 5:5 and undoubtedly Gospel ministers are meant: from the whole it may be observed, that as there have been various officers and offices in the Gospel dispensation, various gifts have been bestowed; and these are the gifts of Christ, which he has received for men, and gives unto them; and hence it appears that the work of the ministry is not an human invention, but the appointment of Christ, for which he fits and qualifies, and therefore to be regarded; and that they only are the ministers of Christ, whom he makes ministers of the New Testament, and not whom men or themselves make and appoint.
(y) T. Bab. Taanith, fol. 10. 2.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 8/4/17 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/4/17 7:58 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
I am not sure who first coined the term, but I have heard it used pretty much all my life (I'm fixin' to turn 50). The first time I ever heard the fourfold view taught was at Southwestern AGU in the late 1980s, from textbooks which were written by AG scholars in the 1970s, such as Dr. Stanley Horton.
I do know, due to my rather keen interest in Pentecostal/charismatic history, that the restoration of apostles and prophets was one of the strong emphases of the Latter Rain Movement, beginning in 1948, and that this has carried over into the charismatic movement to a wide extent. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
8/4/17 10:21 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Link |
Interesting stuff.
So far, I've come across the term 'fourfold ministry' from Cardale in 1851. Early on in the movement Irving was a part of, someone had prophesied that God would restore the apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist, and teacher, and that Jesus would come back soon. They believed in speaking in tongues. A quote from Irving seemed to imply that he believed in the initial evidence doctrine. But they also turned into something like a highly liturgical, high church version of the NAR, but with a more prominent and essential role for apostles.
Their 'apostles' were mostly British aristocrats, with one chemist (pharmacist, I think.) They ended up dying out so their movement died out in 1901, a few months after Agnes Ozman spoke in tongues. But a splinter movement in Germany appointed some new 'apostles' and continues on today.
I found reading some of their stuff strange and hard to relate to.
I wonder if someone in the Pentecostal movement, maybe someone in the Latter Rain Movement, read the term 'four-fold ministry' from the Catholic Apostolic Church writings and thought it should be 'five-fold ministry' instead or if Pentecostals or the Latter Rain Movement in particular came up with the term 'five-fold ministry' independant of this other movement.
The idea of Ephesians 4:11 ministry in the church is nothing new, of course. It's in the Bible. Barclay, a Quaker author in the 17th century, used Ephesians 4:11 to describe the ministry roles of the church. I don't know who they cosidered to be apostles, but they certainly did believe in prophets and consider George Fox to be one.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/4/17 11:29 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
| The Irvingite movement is indeed a fascinating one. As I recall, Parham referred to Irving and the CAC at least once in his writings, noting their affirmation of the "standing sign" of the baptism in the Spirit being speaking in tongues. Parham, like so many leaders of new religious movements, nevertheless tried to present the initial evidence doctrine as something God had specially revealed to him, in his quest to restore the apostolic faith. I will have to look and see if I can find any references Parham may have made to the fivefold vs fourfold idea. I do know that Dowie proclaimed himself to be an apostle and a prophet, even saying he was the Elijah which God was sending as the restorer in the last days. I do know that by the time the AG was formed in 1914, mainstream Pentecostals were not too keen about the use of the title, "apostle" by modern-day ministers. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
8/4/17 11:41 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Link, are you talking about the concept of 5 ministries or specifically the word "fivefold"? |
bonnie knox |
From the quote above, Gill, writing in the mid 1700's says he sees it as four ministries, but if I understand what he means by "distributively," he is saying that the Syriac version of the Bible (2nd century AD?) reads in a way such as to make it 5 ministries.
and some pastors and teachers.... these may be thought to differ.... though I rather think they intend one and the same office, and that the word "teachers" is only explanative of the figurative word "pastors" or shepherds; and the rather because if the apostle had designed distinct officers, he would have used the same form of speaking as before; and have expressed himself thus, "and some pastors, and some teachers"; whereas he does not make such a distribution here as there; though the Syriac version reads this clause distributively as the others; |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/4/17 2:20 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Change Agent |
Most COG's I have been associated just believe in one fold ministry. Could anyone guess which fold it might be?  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
8/4/17 4:27 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
Billfold?
| Change Agent wrote: | | Most COG's I have been associated just believe in one fold ministry. Could anyone guess which fold it might be? |
|
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
8/4/17 9:03 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Link, are you talking about the concept of 5 ministries or specifically the word "fivefold"? |
Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | From the quote above, Gill, writing in the mid 1700's says he sees it as four ministries, but if I understand what he means by "distributively," he is saying that the Syriac version of the Bible (2nd century AD?) reads in a way such as to make it 5 ministries.
and some pastors and teachers.... these may be thought to differ.... though I rather think they intend one and the same office, and that the word "teachers" is only explanative of the figurative word "pastors" or shepherds; and the rather because if the apostle had designed distinct officers, he would have used the same form of speaking as before; and have expressed himself thus, "and some pastors, and some teachers"; whereas he does not make such a distribution here as there; though the Syriac version reads this clause distributively as the others; |
That's how I interpret what he wrote, too.
I was curious about the terminology 'five-fold ministry' where the term originated and if there is any connection with the fourfold terminology used by the Catholic Apostolic Church movement of the 1800's, which started out with fairly Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs. They jumped from Presbyterianism right into some kind of liturgical high churchy NAR belief system rather quickly
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
8/5/17 12:38 am
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
