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Nature Boy Florida |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Simple question: Was the wine that Jesus made at the wedding capable of causing someone to get drunk? |
Who knows?
I suspect Jesus could make fantastic wine with no leavening agent if he wanted to.
I suspect that the water of the wine was made completely pure by Jesus - something unheard of in that day. It would probably make the wine taste completely different than what they had been drinking - probably very good.
Even more amazing - that apparently Jesus took water purification pots (very dirty water) and made wine in those. Those folks serving it must have been very scared knowing where they were dipping it from - but did follow Jesus' command to serve it.
Bottom line - there was a whole lot more miraculous things going on over and above turning dirty water into fantastic tasting wine.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/21/15 7:10 am
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| Yes it is.... |
spartanfan |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | spartanfan, after all the discussions, the best you came up with was the wine that Jesus made "probably" didn't have alcohol. That's a good guess. |
Yes it is a good guess, thank you. Probably a much better guess than yours.
For after all the discussion, not one - not a single one Scripture has been offered that "proves" that Jesus either drank or served alcoholic beverages to others - contributing to their drunkenness. I have rebutted everything that suggests He did.
Since I offered dozens and dozens of Scriptures stating the woes associated with alcohol and then also the health/medical facts concerning its demise and all you guys have are a few verses that possibly (but probably don't) support your take on it.... the truth is that my guess is better than yours.
You simply can't prove He drank it and you can't prove the wine He produced by His first miracle was fermented. I guess you can guess it was intoxicating but that too is just a guess (and a bad one).
It probably wasn't alcoholic because: (1) It was new and hadn't had time to ferment (2) The people he provided it for had already been drinking wine for some time so if it ALL had alcohol in it as you presume then He would be giving more alcohol on top of the alcohol already consumed (which is more than you even drink so you must think it unwise to do so and I know you don't think you are wiser than Jesus).
Think about it - you are accusing Jesus of giving more wine on top of wine - about 54 gallons more. When the "law and the writings of the prophets" that He upheld and preached from says things like, " Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!" (Habakkuk 2:15) and Proverbs 23:29-35 which says, "Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things. .. "
Is it your "guess" that Jesus violated that plus many many other Scriptures and took a chance on bringing a curse upon Himself by providing somebody who was already well drunk even more strong drink so they could get even more drunk on the alcohol He provided?
"..the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, (10) And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (Luke 2:9-10). So..... it was later and the men had well drunk (or drank plenty already)... but the wine Jesus produced tasted better than any already consumed. Do you not think that Jesus, the Son of God, would be capable of producing a grape juice that tasted pretty good - even without alcohol in it? I thought He could do anything He wanted to!
That's my guess and it is better than yours . Far better in my opinion.
There's no way you can win this. I feel for you, but the body of material Scripturally, medically and practically on my side far outweighs anything you can counter with.
Peace  |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
8/21/15 8:03 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
This probably doesn't matter to most on this board - but since we all like to think we can ask God to perform the same miracles that Jesus did - and if we have enough faith he will do it - Ray Hughes used to say - to be like Jesus - all the water you can miraculously turn into wine - you can drink your fill of it.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/21/15 8:31 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quote: | | you are accusing Jesus |
Excuse me? I am only asking the questions. I haven't "accused" Jesus of anything. I have legitimate questions and your answer is what He "probably" did. Let's put it this way. Say the wine was really just grape juice. Why would the Word even allow this discussion? Why isn't it clear that drinking is a sin like the COG Minutes does? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
8/21/15 9:15 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Why would the Word even allow this discussion? Why isn't it clear that drinking is a sin like the COG Minutes does? |
Sorry Eddie.
If everything was clear - there wouldn't be lots of denominations.
Why discuss OSAS?
Why discuss pre trib, mid, post?
Are those clear
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/21/15 10:14 am
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| Good question! |
spartanfan |
That's the same question I've dealt with in regard to sodomy.
If homosexuality is a sin then why is it not mentioned by Jesus? Why did He leave room for the discussion? He could have come right out and said it was.
First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. The result is that a lot of things that are the manifestation of spiritually immaturity are labeled as "sin." I am in no way calling you a "sinner." I just responded to the original post as to whether the wine in the New Testament had alcohol in it or not (some did, some didn't - they drank it both ways). The discussion then went down the road the original poster intended it to - no doubt, and tons of people viewed the thread. Mission accomplished.
The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible.
Kidnapping, for example. Jesus never specifically said that kidnapping was a sin, yet we know that stealing children is wrong. The point is that Jesus did not need to itemize sin, especially when the whole revelation of God's Word (and opinions) contained in the Bible makes God's desire in regard to some things very clear.
So we have the discussions. Hopefully we all want to be as pleasing to God as we can and live in a way that honors Him best.
But I do not judge you (intentionally) - I state my case mostly to affirm my personal and pastoral position. I state it emphatically because I have to defend it every now and then. I need to be reminded as to why I feel the way I do.
In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. I sound a bit hard - but it's really me I'm talking so stern to since I did have some issues with alcohol back in the early 70's. So my own spiritual immaturity years ago sometimes still effects my tone in regard to some subjects such as this. Sorry! |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
8/21/15 10:47 am
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| Re: Good question! |
bradfreeman |
| spartanfan wrote: | | First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. |
Measure what by?
| Quote: | | The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible. |
Do you read your Bible to try to build a list of sins?
I'm betting you don't. I'm glad you don't. If that were really your purpose you'd have compiled a list of Biblical commands to make sure you didn't break any of them.
No one's list of sins has to match mine. God created man with no consciousness of sin, no knowledge of good and evil. The Good News is about giving people something to believe. Jesus calls the word "seed". Every word has fruit it produces in our lives. What word we believe will produce the life that seed contains. This is why law (given by Moses) is not truth (which came by Jesus). Law is something to do. Truth is something to believe. The Gospels are about something to believe, not a list of sins to compile.
| Quote: | | In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
8/21/15 1:36 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Sure - you were in once. 
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/21/15 2:22 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
spartanfan |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. |
Measure what by?
| Quote: | | The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible. |
Do you read your Bible to try to build a list of sins?
I'm betting you don't. I'm glad you don't. If that were really your purpose you'd have compiled a list of Biblical commands to make sure you didn't break any of them.
No one's list of sins has to match mine. God created man with no consciousness of sin, no knowledge of good and evil. The Good News is about giving people something to believe. Jesus calls the word "seed". Every word has fruit it produces in our lives. What word we believe will produce the life that seed contains. This is why law (given by Moses) is not truth (which came by Jesus). Law is something to do. Truth is something to believe. The Gospels are about something to believe, not a list of sins to compile.
| Quote: | | In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
I was saying you need to properly "define sin" (not "list" sins). From my AM sermon 2 weeks ago: "in Ephesians 2:1-3, the terms "trespasses" and "sins" shown as being inherited in us by nature illustrates simply and clearly why sin is such a universal problem. Trespasses is from the Greek word “paraptoma” and it means "to go off a path," "fall," or "slip aside."
When applied to moral and ethical issues, it means "to deviate from the right way," "to wander from a standard."
"Sins" is translated from “hamartia”, a military shooting term that means "to miss the mark," "to fail to achieve a bull's-eye." In terms of morality and ethics, it means "to fail of one's purpose," "to go wrong," "to fail to reach a standard or ideal."
The New Testament always uses “hamartia” (meaning sin) in a moral and ethical sense, whether in commission, omission, thought, feeling, word, or deed. Sin is directly connected to breaking laws. God’s laws! And it’s author – it’s originator is Satan..."
So it is important to properly define sin. I don't think you understood what I meant by "define."
In regard to your question as to whether or not a fine Christian brother like Eddie would be welcomed into the COG with his view?..... the answer is simple - they are welcomed every week somewhere into some Churches of God. So the answer is yes. I think it's apparent that some within the CoG hold to the same opinions as Eddie. And then some are more in line with my opinion in regard to the issue expressed in this thread- and we are welcome also. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
8/21/15 4:18 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Why would the Word even allow this discussion? Why isn't it clear that drinking is a sin like the COG Minutes does? |
Sorry Eddie.
If everything was clear - there wouldn't be lots of denominations.
Why discuss OSAS?
Why discuss pre trib, mid, post?
Are those clear |
But....how can you have a rule that says Christians must abstain from alcohol when it is NOT clear? There is no clear rule on OSAS in the COG because it is not clear.
I don't have a problem with something like, we prefer our members not drink alcohol. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
8/21/15 4:55 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
Eddie Robbins |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Sure - you were in once. |
Still am. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
8/21/15 4:56 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
krista |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. |
Measure what by?
| Quote: | | The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible. |
Do you read your Bible to try to build a list of sins?
I'm betting you don't. I'm glad you don't. If that were really your purpose you'd have compiled a list of Biblical commands to make sure you didn't break any of them.
No one's list of sins has to match mine. God created man with no consciousness of sin, no knowledge of good and evil. The Good News is about giving people something to believe. Jesus calls the word "seed". Every word has fruit it produces in our lives. What word we believe will produce the life that seed contains. This is why law (given by Moses) is not truth (which came by Jesus). Law is something to do. Truth is something to believe. The Gospels are about something to believe, not a list of sins to compile.
| Quote: | | In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Question for you Freeman. Would you drink alcohol at a Church function?
If "No". explain why. If "Yes", explain why? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
8/21/15 8:28 pm
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Randy Johnson |
Yes, it was real alcohol, and the issue is not alcohol, the issue is self-control. Period.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
8/22/15 8:10 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
krista |
| krista wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. |
Measure what by?
| Quote: | | The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible. |
Do you read your Bible to try to build a list of sins?
I'm betting you don't. I'm glad you don't. If that were really your purpose you'd have compiled a list of Biblical commands to make sure you didn't break any of them.
No one's list of sins has to match mine. God created man with no consciousness of sin, no knowledge of good and evil. The Good News is about giving people something to believe. Jesus calls the word "seed". Every word has fruit it produces in our lives. What word we believe will produce the life that seed contains. This is why law (given by Moses) is not truth (which came by Jesus). Law is something to do. Truth is something to believe. The Gospels are about something to believe, not a list of sins to compile.
| Quote: | | In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Question for you Freeman. Would you drink alcohol at a Church function?
If "No". explain why. If "Yes", explain why? |
I guess you knew where I was going with this? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
8/22/15 8:16 pm
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diakoneo |
oh
how
we
on
Actscelerate
love
alcohol
Threads...8 pages 3400 views...fantastic 
And no one has changed their mind  |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
8/22/15 8:44 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
bradfreeman |
| krista wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. |
Measure what by?
| Quote: | | The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible. |
Do you read your Bible to try to build a list of sins?
I'm betting you don't. I'm glad you don't. If that were really your purpose you'd have compiled a list of Biblical commands to make sure you didn't break any of them.
No one's list of sins has to match mine. God created man with no consciousness of sin, no knowledge of good and evil. The Good News is about giving people something to believe. Jesus calls the word "seed". Every word has fruit it produces in our lives. What word we believe will produce the life that seed contains. This is why law (given by Moses) is not truth (which came by Jesus). Law is something to do. Truth is something to believe. The Gospels are about something to believe, not a list of sins to compile.
| Quote: | | In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Question for you Freeman. Would you drink alcohol at a Church function?
If "No". explain why. If "Yes", explain why? |
Of course I would if alcohol were being served. I wouldn't bring alcohol to a non-alcohol function and risk offending someone.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
8/25/15 1:03 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
spartanfan |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | krista wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | First of all - unless you have a true Biblical definition of what constitutes "sin" then you have no standard to measure anything by. Even people who have been raised in church often cannot clearly define sin. |
Measure what by?
| Quote: | | The goal of the Gospels does not seem to be to give us a comprehensive list of sinful activities, and there are many obvious sins that are not found in the “red letter” section of the Bible. |
Do you read your Bible to try to build a list of sins?
I'm betting you don't. I'm glad you don't. If that were really your purpose you'd have compiled a list of Biblical commands to make sure you didn't break any of them.
No one's list of sins has to match mine. God created man with no consciousness of sin, no knowledge of good and evil. The Good News is about giving people something to believe. Jesus calls the word "seed". Every word has fruit it produces in our lives. What word we believe will produce the life that seed contains. This is why law (given by Moses) is not truth (which came by Jesus). Law is something to do. Truth is something to believe. The Gospels are about something to believe, not a list of sins to compile.
| Quote: | | In reality - I consider you a fine Christian brother and at least as sincere in your quest for holiness as I am. |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Question for you Freeman. Would you drink alcohol at a Church function?
If "No". explain why. If "Yes", explain why? |
Of course I would if alcohol were being served. I wouldn't bring alcohol to a non-alcohol function and risk offending someone. |
That is the Jesus thing to do - I mean not bringing alcohol into the picture (or pitcher).  |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
8/25/15 1:12 pm
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| Re: Good question! |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: |
Would a fine Christian brother like Eddie be welcomed into the COG with his view? |
Sure - you were in once. |
Still am. |
I was talking about Brad.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/25/15 2:20 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Good thing Jentezen Franklin is sorta out of the COG - he came down hard on drinking alcohol in a recent sermon. Guess he is out of touch with the new reality.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
8/25/15 2:21 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Good thing Jentezen Franklin is sorta out of the COG - he came down hard on drinking alcoyhol in a recent sermon. Guess he is out of touch with the new reality. |
Just like Jesus did? 
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
8/26/15 8:48 pm
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