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 Have our souls always existed? |
Aaron Scott |
Was a soul created for us when we were conceived/born, etc.?
Or had that soul always existed, but then somehow merged with us?
Adam became a living SOUL. What is the difference in that usage and how we tend to see it today? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/1/17 8:41 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Careful, Aaron, son, you delvin into Mormon theology now. I don't know, but it seems like when a feller commences leanin toward woffie doctrine, he opens hisself fer all kinda stuff. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/2/17 12:41 am
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| OTCP...you've stopped being a parody... |
Aaron Scott |
Have you noticed, OTCP, that in your OTCP persona you NEVER add to a conversation? You always take it downward.
Please, either add something of worth or just refuse to post. Please. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/2/17 6:26 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| No, Aaron, our souls ain’t always existed. Gen 2:7, man became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. All subsequent humans have become living souls at the moment of conception. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/2/17 8:13 am
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| "Old Soul" |
Mat |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | No, Aaron, our souls ain’t always existed. Gen 2:7, man became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. All subsequent humans have become living souls at the moment of conception. |
OTCP,
I don't know about that, it seems like you're an "old soul". You make me think there is something to say for reincarnation. Do you ever have memories of how he sea bed felt on you feet as you passed through the waters of the Red Sea?
Just sayin'!
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
11/2/17 8:33 am
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| Re: OTCP...you've stopped being a parody... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Have you noticed, OTCP, that in your OTCP persona you NEVER add to a conversation? You always take it downward.
Please, either add something of worth or just refuse to post. Please. |
Hmmm, I think he pointed out that the idea of pre-existing souls is a Mormon idea. How did that not add to the conversation? I agree with him. It is un-Biblical. David said "You formed me IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB", that would be all of me including my soul (and spirit since I assume you mean spirit). |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/2/17 9:16 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Y’all must not have been around Actscelerate very long, or perhaps you have somehow forgotten some of the things that have been brought up for ‘discussion’ here before. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
11/2/17 9:48 am
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UncleJD |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Y’all must not have been around Actscelerate very long, or perhaps you have somehow forgotten some of the things that have been brought up for ‘discussion’ here before. |
Yeah, an old poster who's initials were ... had some funny ideas too. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
11/2/17 9:49 am
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Da Sheik |
I don’t think it’s beyond the realm of possibility. I’ve got a feeling there may be a ton of surprises once the veil is taken away and we no longer see partially “through a glass “. And I’m neither Mormon nor WoF  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
11/2/17 10:25 am
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| Re: OTCP...you've stopped being a parody... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | Have you noticed, OTCP, that in your OTCP persona you NEVER add to a conversation? You always take it downward.
Please, either add something of worth or just refuse to post. Please. |
Hmmm, I think he pointed out that the idea of pre-existing souls is a Mormon idea. How did that not add to the conversation? I agree with him. It is un-Biblical. David said "You formed me IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB", that would be all of me including my soul (and spirit since I assume you mean spirit). |
JD, it's not relevant whether it's Mormon or not. What is relevant is the TRUTH. I'm sure the Mormons love their children...should we not do the same, since they also do??? C'mon!
I am not at all against your take on the pre-existence of souls matter. But I am not at all convinced of your take either. There is surely some English on the interpretation. One could argue that being formed in the womb might have been speaking about the physical aspects.
Consider this: Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
This happened BEFORE being formed in the womb? Does this imply some sort of preexistence...or does it just imply that God foreknew something? Again, it's interpretation, right?
Jesus was the Son of God. Did the Son of God exist before the first Christmas in Bethlehem? Of course. Does that have implications for us? Maybe.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am looking for something decisive. Otherwise, people are being foolish to blithely dismiss the preexistence of souls when they have no solid scriptural reason for doing so. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/2/17 10:52 am
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Cojak |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | I don’t think it’s beyond the realm of possibility. I’ve got a feeling there may be a ton of surprises once the veil is taken away and we no longer see partially “through a glass “. And I’m neither Mormon nor WoF |
Ah my friend, that very thought has boosted my SOUL many times. It is human to want to know it all, funny thing, HE knows that.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24285
11/2/17 10:19 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| “Before you were formed in the womb I knew you†is a simple and straightforward reference to the foreknowledge of God. None of us were souls/spirits floating around waiting on a body. Exegesis, brethren, exegesis. Stay away from pop religious ideas, they become more wacko by the day! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/3/17 9:51 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| God, being the one and only Creator and Designer of each and every person, quite obviously had perfect knowledge of what He wanted to create before He formed each of us. This text in no way requires, much less, proves, that souls preexist prior to conception. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
11/3/17 10:05 am
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| No, OTCP...scripture, scripture, scripture... |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | “Before you were formed in the womb I knew you†is a simple and straightforward reference to the foreknowledge of God. None of us were souls/spirits floating around waiting on a body. Exegesis, brethren, exegesis. Stay away from pop religious ideas, they become more wacko by the day! |
Did you notice that you made a claim without a single scriptural reference? You simply dismissed it as foreknowledge, yet you are doing that because you, a priori, have decided that there is not such thing as the preexistence of souls.
Scripture, scripture, scripture! Stay away from the tommyrot that you create and then consume. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/3/17 10:40 am
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| QW, I agree...but |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | God, being the one and only Creator and Designer of each and every person, quite obviously had perfect knowledge of what He wanted to create before He formed each of us. This text in no way requires, much less, proves, that souls preexist prior to conception. |
The claim is not that it proves anything, but that rather it COULD mean something.
We all agree with foreknowledge, but that doesn't mean there is not at the same time preexistence of souls.
Consider what Jesus said of John the Baptist. "If you will receive it, this is Elias...." Well, most of us assume that he means something along the lines of "LIKE Elias," but is that actually so? To be determined.
Again, I'm not claiming there is preexistence of souls, but I'm not sure I have an definitive scripture that proves that there is not...and yet it seems everyone definitively declares that there is no preexistence of souls. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/3/17 10:44 am
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| Re: Have our souls always existed? |
Tom Sterbens |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Was a soul created for us when we were conceived/born, etc.?
Or had that soul always existed, but then somehow merged with us?
Adam became a living SOUL. What is the difference in that usage and how we tend to see it today? |
I think the operative term here is "became".
To answer your question: I am not aware of any scholar, broadly considered orthodox Christian, who sees "became" any different from "became" as one might understand "became." Certainly deconstructionism could allow for the parsing of words to come up with just about anything.
I am not aware of anything in scripture that supports the idea you are chasing.
But that's me... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4508
11/4/17 5:54 pm
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| Re: Have our souls always existed? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | I am not aware of anything in scripture that supports the idea you are chasing. But that's me... |
Nope, it ain't just you Tom. They ain't nothin in scripture what supports such a Mormon notion of souls just waitin fer the next body to inhabit, or reincarnation where folks just keep on a comin back as something different.
Now, what Aaron is a chasin might be found amongst some charismaniacs like Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson, etc................... |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/5/17 2:18 am
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| Re: No, OTCP...scripture, scripture, scripture... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Did you notice that you made a claim without a single scriptural reference? You simply dismissed it as foreknowledge, yet you are doing that because you, a priori, have decided that there is not such thing as the preexistence of souls.
Scripture, scripture, scripture! Stay away from the tommyrot that you create and then consume. |
I think the burden of proof is on the person challenging historic orthodoxy, in fairness. If you told me that 2x + 2 = 5 when x = 1, and I say no it doesn't because 2 + 2 = 4, I shouldn't have to prove that 2 + 2 = 4. Not because it's not true, and not because it can't be proven, but because it's already a commonly understood position.
The position of historic orthodox Christianity, based on Scripture, is that there is no such thing as the preexistence of souls. See https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-existence-of-souls.html for several references, and a Google search for "did our souls always exist" will reveal more.
If you're going to challenge historic orthodoxy, ok, whatever, but you should come to the table with an understanding of what historic orthodoxy on the topic has been, and be prepared to engage that understanding. I don't think it's reasonable to start shouting "sola Scriptura" if people don't offer specific proof texts for the historic scriptural interpretation concerning the issue. It feels like a fallacious dismissal. Just my opinion. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/5/17 1:21 pm
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| Dave...everyone |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | Did you notice that you made a claim without a single scriptural reference? You simply dismissed it as foreknowledge, yet you are doing that because you, a priori, have decided that there is not such thing as the preexistence of souls.
Scripture, scripture, scripture! Stay away from the tommyrot that you create and then consume. |
I think the burden of proof is on the person challenging historic orthodoxy, in fairness. If you told me that 2x + 2 = 5 when x = 1, and I say no it doesn't because 2 + 2 = 4, I shouldn't have to prove that 2 + 2 = 4. Not because it's not true, and not because it can't be proven, but because it's already a commonly understood position.
The position of historic orthodox Christianity, based on Scripture, is that there is no such thing as the preexistence of souls. See https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-existence-of-souls.html for several references, and a Google search for "did our souls always exist" will reveal more.
If you're going to challenge historic orthodoxy, ok, whatever, but you should come to the table with an understanding of what historic orthodoxy on the topic has been, and be prepared to engage that understanding. I don't think it's reasonable to start shouting "sola Scriptura" if people don't offer specific proof texts for the historic scriptural interpretation concerning the issue. It feels like a fallacious dismissal. Just my opinion. |
Please note that I am NOT trying to challenge orthodoxy (although I sometimes do that). I simply DO NOT KNOW that answer. I tend to think that our souls did NOT preexist. But what I am looking for--and so far failed to find (despite some good efforts)--is any DECISIVE scripture that souls did not preexist.
We somehow came to that conclusion centuries ago...but how? What scriptures were used? Or was this just believed because it was contrary to Greek philosophy's take that there ARE preexistent souls?
I am not meaning to be dismissive when I say that the scriptures offered (if any were offered) were unconvincing. I simply and truthfully don't see them as decisive.
Just as the church felt it important to figure out just how the Son and the Father all fit together (hence trinitarian doctrine), I am wondering if there is any one wondered just WHEN the soul came into existence...when it was placed in a child...etc.?
Again, not trying to be argumentative...just looking for some sound reason (besides OTCP's "Sounds Mormon to me!" foolishness). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
11/5/17 4:51 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | lease note that I am NOT trying to challenge orthodoxy (although I sometimes do that). I simply DO NOT KNOW that answer. I tend to think that our souls did NOT preexist. But what I am looking for--and so far failed to find (despite some good efforts)--is any DECISIVE scripture that souls did not preexist. |
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you're challenging orthodoxy. And even if you were, that doesn't mean you're wrong.
Anyway, I linked you to an article with several Scriptures that seem to clearly stand against the notion of souls pre-existing. The chief argument against eternal pre-existence (which I don't think you're proposing) is that if souls eternal pre-existence is an attribute that is uniquely Trinitarian. For souls to eternally pre-exist, by definition, they would somehow have to be a part of God. This is arguably pantheism.
And if they're still created, but not at the point of birth, then when? At the point the universe was created? What support is there for that? At some other time between then and the creation of the person's body?
I understand that you may not find decisive, completely unambiguous Scripture that declares "souls are created at the point of conception, and not before," but what you can find is a lot of Scripture that heavily implies that, and none that implies anything to the contrary. Speculating about something that could conceivably be true but has no support or implication in Scripture is unfruitful and arguably a 1 Timothy 4:7/Job 15:3 issue. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/5/17 6:08 pm
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