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Grandpa Cleland |
| Quote: | | attitudes like this towards us is why you're losing your best & brightest. and thanks for the support. |
By attitudes you are meaning what...?
| Quote: | | but i have a hard time getting "Growth Strategies" from people that have never pastored or planted a church... |
Would you get advice on your stock options from someone that sells cars?? I don't think so... I was not trying to ruffle feathers, but It is TRUE.
| Quote: | | My advice is... come back in a few years when you have planted your church or pastored a church and tell us how it is going... |
I hope you and your church do great... when it does let me know, until then I will keep DOING what I am doing... No offense intended... Let me ask the question this way... Would you take tax advice from someone that is looking at working for H&R Block? NO you would go to someone that has a history doing taxes...
| Quote: | | It is easy to talk about it... it is different to do it... |
It is easy to talk about, but hard to do... I talk about a lot of things... We talk about what we would do differently if we were president... but until we are president we just TALK... once again, no offense intended...
| Quote: | | So Kevin, Firestarter, Holzman, Vintage.... when you enter into your perfect kingdom, give us a holla (I am still trying to be hip) and tell us how "BIG" your church is... |
After reading the posts of many (especially the ones that I listed) you look at how bad the COG is.. and that is ok. You are entitled to your opinion as we all are... Here again is the political analogy... If you talk about about the president but didn't vote, you have no right to criticize his administration... You did not fulfill your obligation as a citizen of this great country. The same for the church world. If you are upset with the COG, and I agree with you that there are many things that need changing, become a bishop and VOTE. If you are not going to do that and you leave the COG... you should just continue on and find a covering that will better assist you in the way that you feel the COG has failed. BUT IF YOU will not take the time to vote as a minister or even church member, then why should we listen to complaints made by those who have given up and left...?? Seriously...
| Quote: | | "Don't listen to people that are not producing the results you wish to produce" |
Surely an educated man like yourself has heard that... John Maxwell teaches it, Zig Ziggler teaches it, and I think that Rick Warren even has said it in some of his leadership stuff...
Once again, this post was not meant to discourage nor was it an attempt to discredit you and your various ministries.... But i think they are facts that we should look at..
On a personal level, I appreciate your zeal and hope and pray that each of you go far in ministry... not just numbers, but impact your local community. May God bless...[/b] |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 10:13 pm
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| oh... |
Grandpa Cleland |
| Quote: | | attitudes like this towards us is why you're losing your best & brightest. |
I am still waiting to see the list of the best and brightest...
In the last 140 some posts... 2 names have been mentioned... Surely there has got to be more... |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 10:15 pm
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Memory03 |
they can't be too bright if they a leavin tha Church a God... 
_________________
Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 21953
4/1/07 10:17 pm
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| Re: oh... |
KevinLloyd |
| Grandpa Cleland wrote: | | Quote: | | attitudes like this towards us is why you're losing your best & brightest. |
I am still waiting to see the list of the best and brightest...
In the last 140 some posts... 2 names have been mentioned... Surely there has got to be more... |
well, i've said it once & i'll say it again...i am probably not one of the best or the brightest at anything. but an overwhelming feeling of the denomination being filled with attitudes like yours in your last post is why you lost me.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/1/07 10:19 pm
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vintagefaith77 |
| Grandpa Cleland wrote: | | Quote: | | attitudes like this towards us is why you're losing your best & brightest. and thanks for the support. |
By attitudes you are meaning what...?
| Quote: | | but i have a hard time getting "Growth Strategies" from people that have never pastored or planted a church... |
Would you get advice on your stock options from someone that sells cars?? I don't think so... I was not trying to ruffle feathers, but It is TRUE.
| Quote: | | My advice is... come back in a few years when you have planted your church or pastored a church and tell us how it is going... |
I hope you and your church do great... when it does let me know, until then I will keep DOING what I am doing... No offense intended... Let me ask the question this way... Would you take tax advice from someone that is looking at working for H&R Block? NO you would go to someone that has a history doing taxes...
| Quote: | | It is easy to talk about it... it is different to do it... |
It is easy to talk about, but hard to do... I talk about a lot of things... We talk about what we would do differently if we were president... but until we are president we just TALK... once again, no offense intended...
| Quote: | | So Kevin, Firestarter, Holzman, Vintage.... when you enter into your perfect kingdom, give us a holla (I am still trying to be hip) and tell us how "BIG" your church is... |
After reading the posts of many (especially the ones that I listed) you look at how bad the COG is.. and that is ok. You are entitled to your opinion as we all are... Here again is the political analogy... If you talk about about the president but didn't vote, you have no right to criticize his administration... You did not fulfill your obligation as a citizen of this great country. The same for the church world. If you are upset with the COG, and I agree with you that there are many things that need changing, become a bishop and VOTE. If you are not going to do that and you leave the COG... you should just continue on and find a covering that will better assist you in the way that you feel the COG has failed. BUT IF YOU will not take the time to vote as a minister or even church member, then why should we listen to complaints made by those who have given up and left...?? Seriously...
| Quote: | | "Don't listen to people that are not producing the results you wish to produce" |
Surely an educated man like yourself has heard that... John Maxwell teaches it, Zig Ziggler teaches it, and I think that Rick Warren even has said it in some of his leadership stuff...
Once again, this post was not meant to discourage nor was it an attempt to discredit you and your various ministries.... But i think they are facts that we should look at..
On a personal level, I appreciate your zeal and hope and pray that each of you go far in ministry... not just numbers, but impact your local community. May God bless...[/b] |
My question is why would I take advice on how to reach my generation from someone who is so condescending as yourself and has offered no solutions, only back handed insults? If you are so wise granpa, then why don't you offer up some solutions on how to reach a generation that is rapidly departing the church as you know it and will be COMPLETELY lost in a few years if someone doesn't do something about it?? Should we buy newer Redbacks? Should we form a committee in Cleveland to explore the problem....maybe even hire an expert to give us statistics on the problem that our officials can ignore? Granpa, since you have been around for so long and the rest of us young un's are obviously just wet behind the ears novices, what is your solution? What are you doing to reach my generation???
Unless you have some answers, you have nothing to offer me or anyone who is genuinely searching for answers. And before you totally discount my ministry and the ministry of others, maybe you should do a little research. Yes, I may be a lowly youth pastor to you, but I pour out my blood, sweat and tears to this generation and do not think I'm inferior to you or anyone else because i haven't "planted a church". What arrogance!!
p.s. at least we don't hide behind a pen name when we give our 'growth strategies'  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1807
4/1/07 10:23 pm
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Grandpa Cleland |
| Quote: | | but an overwhelming feeling of the denomination being filled with attitudes like yours in your last post is why you lost me. |
what overwhelming feeling of the denomination... who feels this way?? What attitude??
you never answered the previous post...
Let me ask this question Kevin... You listed many ministries in another thread that are DOING MINISTRY THE WAY you want to do your ministry... that is great!!! That is exactly what I posted...
Your Previous post said:
| Quote: | one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
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You would not be watching these guys and keeping up with their statistics if they were "not producing the results you wish to produce..." Am I right? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 10:29 pm
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Telecaster |
Eight pages, and I'm still trying to figure out who the best and the brightest are . . . . . . . . So far all I'm getting is it's all those who want to rock tradition and go beyond authority. So if this is the case, I suppose being young myself, I need to develop the spirit of rebellion and then maybe my name will be included in the brightest and best . . . .  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1882
4/1/07 10:35 pm
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wvwatchman |
| Telecaster wrote: | | Eight pages, and I'm still trying to figure out who the best and the brightest are . . . . . . . . So far all I'm getting is it's all those who want to rock tradition and go beyond authority. So if this is the case, I suppose being young myself, I need to develop the spirit of rebellion and then maybe my name will be included in the brightest and best . . . . |
TC, you also would have to stop quoting scripture and become more relevant. 
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Amos 8:11-12
John 12:32 |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
4/1/07 10:39 pm
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KevinLloyd |
| Grandpa Cleland wrote: | | Quote: | | but an overwhelming feeling of the denomination being filled with attitudes like yours in your last post is why you lost me. |
what overwhelming feeling of the denomination... who feels this way?? What attitude??
you never answered the previous post...
Let me ask this question Kevin... You listed many ministries in another thread that are DOING MINISTRY THE WAY you want to do your ministry... that is great!!! That is exactly what I posted...
Your Previous post said:
| Quote: | one of the most frustrating things to see as a young guy is another leader/pastor start and/or lead a church that just explodes...and it's happening all over...
elevation church-charlotte, nc - led by steven furtick who is only around 26 or something like that. they're a year old and run 1600.
mosaic church - charlotte, nc - led by naeem fazel who is early 30's. 1 year old over 1000
newspring church - anderson, sc - led by perry noble who started it in his 20's...now they're around 8000.
oak leaf church - cartersville, ga - led by michael ????? who's in his early 30's i think. they are 6 months old and run around 500.
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You would not be watching these guys and keeping up with their statistics if they were "not producing the results you wish to produce..." Am I right? |
yes, i'm listening to those guys. and i'm also listening to people who are in the same stage of development that i'm in. and i'm listening to guys who are in youth ministry, music ministry, etc. i'm listening to guys who aren't in ministry at all. you know why...because their experience doesn't always equal their insight. i glean some of the best ideas, thoughts, challenges from people who are "way down the chain of command" so to speak. so what if they've never done what i'm doing? so what if they are idealistic? so what? they may just have the fresh idea that i'm looking for or that i need.
and to answer the question of "what attitude"...the attitude that your first post had. that basically we have nothing to add to the discussion until we have done something. to borrow travis' word, how arrogant. that is why you're losing young guys.
this may be way out there...but there are guys out there who are running youth departments, music departments, etc, who have an influential voice for today. they have their finger on the pulse of what is happening. they are great communicators, visionaries, dreamers, idealists. they may be raw, they may offend sometimes. but in some of them, there are keys to great growth and turnaround. this refusal to listen to them, use them or take anything that they say with any amount of respect will only cause them to leave or live frustrated.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/1/07 10:39 pm
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| Dearest Vintage... |
Grandpa Cleland |
| Quote: | | My question is why would I take advice on how to reach my generation from someone who is so condescending as yourself and has offered no solutions, only back handed insults? |
condescending-showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority
insults-To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.
I read my post, over and over, and find nothing condescending or insulting in it. I hope both of you fulfill your ministry and reach greater heights than you even dream about.
| Quote: | | If you are so wise granpa, |
Never claimed to be wise... I am an educated through COG institution, Worked as an executive in the business world, been involved in all aspects of ministry, volunteered, did many internships both in COG and in an emergent church, Youth pastor, music minister, College pastor, Associate Pastor, Senior Pastor... If I have any wisdom it is because I learned the hard way. Through mistakes and error!!!
| Quote: | | then why don't you offer up some solutions on how to reach a generation that is rapidly departing the church as you know it and will be COMPLETELY lost in a few years if someone doesn't do something about it?? |
What you are looking for is 12 step program... 12 ways to fix our dilemma... guess what, there is no 12 step program. It is going to take "Young uns" as you say and "Grandpa's" coming together and praying like we use to... there is no quick fix. We have an ATM mentality... Instant gratification... Now or never mentality... That is the way our young people are and it is the way that many pastors are... No body is willing to pay the price anymore... No more praying until God moves.... We go looking to Rick Warren for his list of how to fix our program... You act as if the problem you are eluding to is something new...
| Quote: | Should we buy newer Redbacks? Should we form a committee in Cleveland to explore the problem....maybe even hire an expert to give us statistics on the problem that our officials can ignore? Granpa, since you have been around for so long and the rest of us young un's are obviously just wet behind the ears novices, what is your solution? What are you doing to reach my generation???
Unless you have some answers, you have nothing to offer me or anyone who is genuinely searching for answers. And before you totally discount my ministry and the ministry of others, maybe you should do a little research. Yes, I may be a lowly youth pastor to you, but I pour out my blood, sweat and tears to this generation and do not think I'm inferior to you or anyone else because i haven't "planted a church". What arrogance!! |
I read your posts and to be honest with you vintage, I am disappointed with you... One of the reasons that we are in this fix is just as you said... This generation walks around with a chip on their shoulder... You know what will change the generation... It begins with bringing back Godly respect... How can we expect are youth to respect Godly authority when "young uns" like yourself don't respect wise counsel.
| Quote: | p.s. at least we don't hide behind a pen name when we give our 'growth strategies'
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The P.S. of your post shows the true attitude by which this post was made... It is your way or the highway... You can take it or leave but until you respect the grandpas, grandmas, the wise counsel of ministers that have been through it in the past, your history and heritage, and the hymnals you will never reach your generation or gain the assistance and prayers of an older "TRADITIONAL" movement....
PS. I thank God for the underpaid and overworked Youth pastors like yourself. I never said anything negative about it. What I did say is until you are a good senior pastor, I won't glean advice from you on how to be a good senior pastor.... |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 11:03 pm
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gadawg |
Very well said Grandpa!
Kevin: Do you still hold a ministerial license with the CofG? If your new church is not affiliated with the CofG, why do you still hold your license if the CoG is so bad? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 647
4/1/07 11:12 pm
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| Kevin... |
Grandpa Cleland |
So Kevin,
all kidding aside... you would go to Charles Shwab and let the secretary make changes to your retirement portfolio?
You may get some good insight from her.
*what a good stock in her opinion is
*What other people have went with
*her past experience with her IRA...
*Which specialist is the best to deal with in her opinion...
etc...
But when it comes down to it, If your looking at retirement, you will deal with a retirement specialist. You may bring to the table the things that the secretary said to you, but you will base more of your decision on what the retirement specialist says... Am I right??? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 11:16 pm
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| Re: Kevin... |
KevinLloyd |
| Grandpa Cleland wrote: | So Kevin,
all kidding aside... you would go to Charles Shwab and let the secretary make changes to your retirement portfolio?
You may get some good insight from her.
*what a good stock in her opinion is
*What other people have went with
*her past experience with her IRA...
*Which specialist is the best to deal with in her opinion...
etc...
But when it comes down to it, If your looking at retirement, you will deal with a retirement specialist. You may bring to the table the things that the secretary said to you, but you will base more of your decision on what the retirement specialist says... Am I right??? |
i am not looking at retirement.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/1/07 11:18 pm
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| now kevin... |
Grandpa Cleland |
You know what I am saying....  |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 627
4/1/07 11:27 pm
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vintagefaith77 |
granpa, the only part of your post that i agree with is that the real change will come when us 'young un's 'and the older, wiser pastors come together and truly work together. That's ALL i have ever wanted and I have made that plea NUMEROUS times on this board. But, most of what I have gotten in return is the older, more wiser ministers coming back and criticizing EVERY SINGLE new idea that we bring to the table. No encouragement, no edification, no better or fresher ideas...just bashing and name calling. I've been called every name in the book on this board...rebel, insolent, over zealous, green, wet behind the ears. And all because I WANT ANSWERS! I want answers from my leaders on what their plan is to reach my generation. I want to know how they are planning on mobilizing the body of Christ to meet the needs of this changing postmodern culture.
And when I have asked these questions, all I get from the older, more wise pastors is "love it or leave it! Why are you COG anyway if all you do is complain?" Is that all you got to offer? Seriously? Now, the people that want to keep the status quo have found this "emerging" category to lump us all in and we have become entertainment driven compromisers who water down the gospel and only care about numbers. I have to believe that someone who has been in the ministry for 30 years is smarter than this...has something more to offer than pat answers and insults derived from insecurity. If not, then this denomination is doomed because the "best and the brightest" have become hirelings who only want to climb the "ladder of success". |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1807
4/1/07 11:33 pm
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KevinLloyd |
| gadawg wrote: | Very well said Grandpa!
Kevin: Do you still hold a ministerial license with the CofG? If your new church is not affiliated with the CofG, why do you still hold your license if the CoG is so bad? |
because i got my credentials & want to keep them. i really love some of the people.
_________________
Kevin Lloyd
Executive Pastor
Stevens Creek Church
www.kevinlloydlive.com
www.twitter.com/kevinlloyd |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 830
4/2/07 12:16 am
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roughridercog |
| KevinLloyd wrote: | | gadawg wrote: | Very well said Grandpa!
Kevin: Do you still hold a ministerial license with the CofG? If your new church is not affiliated with the CofG, why do you still hold your license if the CoG is so bad? |
because i got my credentials & want to keep them. i really love some of the people. |
Kevin, I'm not being mean. You know that.
But I have to ask a question. How long will you be allowed to pastor an independent church and still keep your credentials with the Church of God? Is there a time limit? Have you discussed this with your AB?
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
4/2/07 8:19 am
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| Thank you Tom |
COG TODAY |
Tom said.
"Proverbs suggests that the beginning of wisdom is the ability to recognize it. Even if in unlikely containers.
A common denominator of successful ministry is the ability to enter into the paradigm of another. Perhaps that would enable you to find value in the spirit of what Grandpa Cleland had to say.
Perhaps their may be value found in what appears to be a warning against drawing air tight conclusions on the basis of youthful passion and hypothesis. They are yet projections to be tested.
I will be fifty one month from today (old guy)..... I look back and wish I would have had more courage to do things differently. I am grateful for your courage. You will do great things.
From an old guy: Moderate your passion...subordinate it to principle always. Look for truth wherever it may be found. Never forget...the test of truth is freedom...not rightness. "
I wish we all could here and follow your wisdom. Thank You |
Friendly Face
Posts: 233
4/2/07 10:11 am
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| Two Questions |
COG TODAY |
What is an Emergent Church?
What is wrong with a traditional church? |
Friendly Face
Posts: 233
4/2/07 10:13 am
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| What happened to our brightest and best? |
roughridercog |
They didn't leave.
They grew up and now they're defining cutting edge.
Today's brightest and best will do the same. Just be patient with them.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25305
4/3/07 12:14 pm
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