Actscelerate.com

Why are you NOT in agreement with OSAS?

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **4/19/13 9:15 pm**

If you are in agreement with the "Once-Saved, Always-Saved" (OSAS) doctrine, please hold off a bit and allow those who are NOT in agreement with that doctrine, to share why and hopefully will share Scripture to back up their belief.

Though I am someone who believes a Christian can indeed decide not to follow Christ any more and choose this world instead, I'm not weighing in Scripturally at this time so our viewers can have the first input. I've only shared this second paragraph so viewers can see that this thread is not intended as a set up.

I have some Baptist laymen friends who have asked me to share with them why I don't agree with OSAS. They used to listen to me on the radio and gained respect and have asked me to share with them.

Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/19/13 10:17 pm**

There are many warning passages which could be cited as well as several examples in scripture of those who turned away from following Jesus and were thus lost, but to me the core issue is really the question, "What does the Bible teach concerning the nature of the atonement in Christ?"

If the penal substitution theory is true, then unconditional eternal security (OSAS) is, by definition, quite clearly true. ALL the believer's sins in that case, "past, present and future" have been "paid for" and thus preforgiven, even the penalty for the sin of unbelief is prepaid, and so of course OSAS/UES is true if the premise (penal substitution) is true. No sin, no matter how rebellious, wicked, grievous and repugnant to God, not even turning away from following Jesus, can be excluded from the purported coverage that the penal substitution theory provides.

Since the Bible does not teach that Christ paid the penalty or paid the sin debt for sin, but instead teaches that Christ paid a ransom/redemption price to buy slaves from the slavemarket of sin, the basic doctrinal premise and foundation of OSAS/UES being untrue to Scripture, it then directly follows that the entire OSAS/UES theory is untrue, having no Scriptural basis.

Here are just a few reasons

Friendly Face Posts: 195 **4/19/13 10:25 pm**

A short Biblical List of my reasons I DO NOT believe in OSAS

1. Hebrews 6:4-8 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2. Hebrews 10:26-34 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

4. Specific Sins - "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19)

5. Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

6. 1 Corinthians 9:23-27 - And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway[adokimos (ad-ok'-ee-mos); unapproved, rejected; worthless (literally or morally):

7. Depart From the Faith - 1 Tim 4:1-3 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Depart - aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); remove, instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Repent – 8. Revelations 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2-3 - Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 8:20 am**

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:19, 20 NASB)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 8:32 am**

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. (1 John 5:16-18 NIV)

Too Many Scriptures Declare It Is So!

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3638 **4/20/13 8:34 am**

Some good reading on it can be seen at: http://www.bible-knowledge.com/lose-your-salvation/#ixzz2R0Z6btuV

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 8:39 am**

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3:2-10 NIV)

Some other reasons...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **4/20/13 8:40 am**

Predestination (which is the foundation of OSAS) necessitates either an explicit predestination TO HELL...or at least a de facto predestination to hell. That is, if you are not predestined to be saved, then there is only one other conclusion for you...hell.

This leads us, once again, to the fact that children must/will go to hell if you believe in OSAS. After all, unless that child was predestined to be saved, then if that child dies early on, then, it not being saved (nor being predestined to be saved), the child MUST go to hell.

This is the part of "Christianity" that I wholeheartedly REJECT. It is NOT Christian, even though I trust that Calvin and Augustine were well-intentioned.

If Jesus is even better than we can imagine, then His gospel is even better than we imagine. So we should always interpret the scriptures in the way that makes for the "best version" of Christianity--one that balances justice with mercy and grace.

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 8:48 am**

But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness, where your ancestors tested and tried me, though for forty years they saw what I did. That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.” Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. (Hebrews 3:6-19 NIV)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 8:54 am**

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13 NIV)

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 NIV)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 8:59 am**

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Romans 11:22, 23 NIV)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 9:06 am**

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:15-23 NIV)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 9:14 am**

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. (John 15:1-10 NIV)

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 9:25 am**

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. (Ephesians 5:5-7 NIV)

Why not agree?

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **4/20/13 9:54 am**

Because backsliding is something Church of God people do best.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

A Baptist knows he can't lose it...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **4/20/13 9:55 am**

But he's afraid he doesn't have it.

A Pentecostal has it but is afraid he's going to lose it.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 10:10 am**

I don't believe you can 'lose' salvation like you might accidentally lose your wallet or your keys. It can be forfeited or forsaken by willfully turning away from Christ and returning to a sinful lifestyle.

OSAS - Is a doctrine of the Devil

Friendly Face Posts: 195 **4/20/13 3:25 pm**

Depart From the Faith - 1 Tim 4:1-3 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Depart - aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); remove, instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Re: OSAS - Is a doctrine of the Devil

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/20/13 3:52 pm**

I agree.

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **4/20/13 4:33 pm**

1 Timothy 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

A convert can fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. How does OSAS make room for this?